The CEO of the Utah Warriors on Building a Pro Rugby Team That Lasts

If you had a $100 million and you’re the Utah Warriors, how
would you spend that? We’d get every kid in the state of Utah rugby ball.
Welcome to the Know Your Ship podcast presented by E-Hub. I’m your host,
Frank Dolce. Do you think you’re ready? Cuz Yeah. I don’t know. Are you going
to be throwing curve balls at me or Yes. All right. There’s definitely going
to be curve balls which you can’t handle because you didn’t play baseball.
Did you play baseball growing up? One year were just one year. One year when
I was 12 years old and it was not enough physical contact and I was like,
“No, I’m not going to sit out here and do this. Couldn’t stand it.
Couldn’t stand sitting in the outfield and all the, you know, having to shift
from batting to field to this to that. It just it wasn’t it wasn’t my cup of
tea. Nothing nothing about it. The great I love I love going to baseball
games, don’t get me wrong. Like we used to go to the Bees games, Buzz,
whatever they have been over the the number of years. Love it. My dad used to
actually have season tickets, I think when they were the Trappers. Oh, that’s
a long time ago. Yeah. Um, love going to baseball games. Love going, you
know, I took my son last year to a Red Sox game. There’s just something about
baseball that’s special, right? Going to a good Yeah. There’s nothing like it
sitting in the stand, sunny sunny summer afternoon. I get the allure of it.
Yeah. But as the player, maybe it was my ADD, maybe it was just whatever it
was, I just I needed to be I needed to be uh physical. I needed to get
involved with something a little bit more. Is that a self diagnosis ADD?
That’s the best. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s I haven’t gone to any doctors or
psychologists for it, but I I didn’t I couldn’t really figure out why. I just
would start getting absolutely bored out of my mind sitting it in the
outfield. Oh, so that’s great. Well, very special guest today here at the
Stealth. It was very brief baseball career. Ironically, I I was I was part of
the all-star team for the 12-year-olds. One year you were one year. I was a
one-year all-star. I got the All-Star hat. I don’t know where it is. I can’t
prove it, but I’ll take I’ll take it. So, do you think you made uh do you
think you made the right choice? I mean, you were a oneyear Allstar, one hit
wonder in baseball and you quit. Literally on top. Literally one hit wonder.
Cuz when they did the, you know, the tryyouts back in the day, you know,
they’d have somebody sitting there at home base just tossing up the ball like
this and I was cranking them over the fence. But when it actually came to
actual live pictures and stuff, terrible. Couldn’t figure it out. Didn’t know
what to do. Yeah. Wasn’t really my cup of tea. Yeah. They say it’s just one
of the hardest things to do. Stand up there. Probably a guy throwing
someone’s throwing 90 miles an hour fast ball and then a curveball and some
change up or something else. And my frame of reference is dude perfect and
what those guys have done with baseball. So that’s really all I’ve got at
this stage is whether or not I could be a 40-ome year old guy trying to swing
a, you know, hit a professional Major League Baseball pitcher. Yeah. Well, or
you could be the guy, what was that story? The guy who went and joined the
league when he was like 40 years old and he discovered he was a great
pitcher. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that one? I don’t know. But but uh that
that didn’t last super long. Anyway, this is Kimell Care, co-founder, CEO of
the Utah Warriors, uh, part of US Major League Rug Rugby. Mhm. Did you also
co-found the league? Were you were you instrumental in founding the league?
That seems strong to say that, but we were definitely a part of the like the
the core group of individuals that was a part of I mean, it was a we started
with seven teams and it it sort of started with three or four different city,
you know, ownership groups and then we kind began to kind of bring in others.
And so, yeah, we were there from like the first meeting in day one going back
to, you know, the fall of 2016 when we began to have these conversations. The
first meeting officially was like in Houston in August in 2016 where like 10
or 11 teams and ownership groups came together and then eventually that led
to the founding seven teams in 2018. So yeah, we’ve been involved from day
one but um it’s all a partnership. So it’s multiple different organizations.
Okay. Well, we want to talk about that. I want to talk about the business
structure of uh of MLR and and how that came to be because it’s following on
the heels of a of a league that only lasted one year, I think. Yeah. That
that went under. It just didn’t it just couldn’t survive under the under the
organization. So, I want to get to that. Uh but let’s let’s dig into your
background first a little bit and how you got involved in in rugby and your
your love of the sport and you mentioned it already. Yeah. You know, I went
to the game. Yeah. Let’s not bring up the result last. No, no, it was a great
game, but here’s here’s what I thought. you you like for someone who’s not at
all aware. I mean, I know rugby and I’ve seen stuff here and there and and we
have mutual friends who who’ve played and coached, but I’ve never, you know,
I haven’t really gone to a game or and and I’ve never really been up close
and personal again. I had that opportunity recently. One thing that you
notice immediately is the mass of the human beings who are participating in
this sport. Yeah. It’s unbelievable. Yeah. The size and the athleticism and
everything that occurs. Yeah. in that you just don’t you just don’t get that
perspective unless you’re standing on the sideline. I mean, I’m biased, but
yeah, like it’s it’s the the full package of athleticism, fitness, strength,
power. I mean, every sport I appreciate. Uh, you know, I grew up playing
football, played a little soccer, played some baseball. You were a wrestler.
Wrestler. All sports um have something amazing about them, but rugby is kind
of that unique combination of all of them where you you know you could be uh
you know like one of the kids that ended up playing the the last couple
minutes of the game is 5’9 maybe 165 lbs soaking wet. Um you know this kid
from New Zealand who’s an unbelievable little scrum half which is the
position I used to play. Mhm. Um all the way up to you know Gavin Thornberry.
He didn’t play last night cuz he’s injured, but you know, he’s 6’8”, 270
some odd pounds, and he’s having to run around for a full 80 minutes. And,
you know, to be able to to do that, but then to do scrums and line outs, and
then the the physical uh contact, tackling, running, it’s pretty impressive
some of the G forces that these guys exert on the day, you know, especially
like if you’re a small little guy like I used to be. not that anymore, but
like a small little guy having to tackle one of these big massive props.
That’s, you know, we’ve got one of them, Tonga Kof, who’s uh an American
football convert that played a little rugby when he was in high school, but
he’s 6 foot three, sturdy 290, 300 lb. And when that guy gets ahead of steam,
I wouldn’t want to be standing anywhere near him. So, yeah, it’s it’s pretty
impressive what some of these guys can do. Yeah. Well, it’s even more
impressive that there and I don’t know all the positions, but you know, like
when when you’re on the defensive set, there’s a couple guys that are back
deep and they’re kind of tracking side to side and they’re the smaller guys.
What position those are back. So, it’s kind of it’s it’s very similar to uh
the best um comparison is is football. Yeah. where your linemen are forwards
and then your, you know, your skill positions, your receivers, quarterbacks,
running backs are your backs. So in rugby there’s backs and forwards
effectively. Yeah. So your your defensive line would be up y up close to the
ball and you have your bigger guys would be kind of closer to the breakdown
to the tackle and then your your speedier smaller guys would be on the edge
and it happens that way. Yeah. as you go out to the wings and the ball is
traveling down the line and it gets to the guy out on the wing and he’s like
super fast, good like really good athleticism, movement and all that. Well,
what what happens also is that one of the guys you were talking like, you
know, the 6’8 300lb guy, he gets the ball. Well, he just turn he’s going to
turn up field like he’s going to just start running with the ball and
sometimes he breaks through and then one of the backs finds himself in a
position where he has to go and hit chase that guy down. Yeah. It’s It’s
almost like you just got to jump on his back and just hopefully, you know,
hang on for a ride, you know. Yeah. Yeah. grab him, you know, slide down to
it’s like it’s it’s like a quarterback trying coming out to try to tackle a
big tight end, you know, or a big running back with no padding. It’s well, it
it was a fascinating experience. It was a great experience to to watch that.
And and I think like you have said in the past, you know, if you can witness
if if you can get people to witness the sport up close and personal, it’s it
changes your perspective on on what is happening out on the field and all of
the athleticism. So, it was it was it was a lot of fun. I I uh am curious
about I I know a little bit about your history and how you got into rugby
because you jumped in late Yeah. in your in your life and then and then you
really made the most of I think you were threetime all-American. Is that
right? Something like that. Several time national champion, coached several
national championships teams. Was rugby just not a thing when you were when
you were growing up? I mean, was it all the other sports that kind of took
took its place until you discovered it? Kind of. Um, so rugby here in Utah
actually, uh, is got a a pretty good seedbed of it’s multi-generational, not
only because of the Polynesian community, but because of a lot of the, you
know, folks that have come from uh, rugby playing countries. Um, but when I
was growing up, this was the ‘9s, late 80s, uh, Highland Rugby was a pretty
well established program, the Larry Gellwix’s of the world. Um, you know,
Morgan Scally was he’s a year younger than me and he had done really uh well
with Highland Rugby and football. Um, Hotinada kind of came up through that
same Highland Rugby program. Uh, Fuy Vakapuna, Cameron Jensen. Um, I mean,
there’s a lot of guys that played football, you know, kind of through that
90s and 2000s time frame that also played rugby and have Highland Rugby to
kind of thank for that. But when I was in high school, I so I grew up in
Davis County. I grew up in Bountiful. Um we relocated here when I was about
seven. So I’m kind of a Utah born and bred kid, but uh grew up in Bountiful.
And there was also another club up in Davis at Davis High. Um and I had a a
buddy of mine that was playing rugby and he said, “Oh, you should go
come out and play. You should come out and play.” Uh actually one of my
teachers at the school, his son played. Um, but it was in the spring kind of
in that time frame of, you know, March, April, and May when I was also doing
other wrestling stuff. I was doing freestyle and Greco and Gotcha. So,
wrestling was kind of my sport of choice. Um, so I never really did rugby,
but then when I got to BYU, I was going down there initially to wrestle and
then I decided, you know, I I I can’t do wrestling at the collegiate level. I
I’m I’m not that I I like it, but I’m not that passion. Like to to wrestle at
the collegiate level, that’s a commitment. You’ve got to either be completely
committed to it or have a couple screws loose. Like you you can’t be anywhere
in between. Like honestly, I I I I say that with all due respect. My my
cousin Ben, he was an all-American down at UVU. Um like our family grew up
wrestling. My dad wrestled at BYU, my uncle wrestled at BYU. Uh, so
wrestling’s kind of a part of our family DNA. Anyways, I I I made that
decision really late to not wrestle. Um, so I’m sitting there trying to
figure out, well, I can’t go trap for the football team. There’s no way that
they’re going to take a 5’9 slow piece of crud, you know, to to play
football, let alone, you know, you know, they’re not going to even look at me
for walk-on or anything. So, um, anyways, my my my roommate, all of his
brothers had played rugby at BYU, and BYU at the time had had a pretty decent
program. Mhm. They said, “You should go try out.” I was like,
“Yeah, sure. Why not?” I I’ve always kind of wanted to. I’ve been
invited to do it all these other times for this other club up in Davis County
and yada yada yada. Anyways, I didn’t know what was going on. Didn’t know the
rules. Went out to one of the practices, which was sort of the deacto try
out. Um, and only because of the fact that I was just in such good shape from
wrestling did I make the team. And I could run sideline to sideline for 80
minutes long and my wrestling shape just kind of made it so it was it was an
easy transition. Um, and I loved it because, uh, you know, growing up in in
kind of that American football context, um, you know, I don’t know if you
know Larry Wall, he was our high school co, he was my my high school coach.
Amazing guy. But, you know, we we ran the old Nebraska eye and I was a
receiver. So, you know, you’re you’re out there mostly for blocking, just the
block. I think many passes. I think I caught maybe, you know, six or seven
passes my entire career. So, the fact that I could get six or seven passes in
a game, I could run with the ball, I could tackle the ball, I could tackle,
you could do anything and everything that, you know, you kind of couldn’t do
in football. I just took to it like a duck in water. Did you Did you grow up
in a big family? Five kids. I’m the middle. Uh, and w would you say was it
like uh was it a competitive athletic situation with the family? You
mentioned your grandfather, your dad, wrestlers. Uh, maybe you trended
towards that or or or was it was it different? You were maybe you were the
one who just kind of I you know No, it was it was kind of me falling into it
candidly. I I I just wanted to do this is going to you’ll kind of appreciate
this. um you know BYU you’re either uh you know you’re on one of the sports
teams or you’re doing um inter murals and in the inner murals down there you
know you’re saying a prayer with the team beforehand I was like not for me I
want to play something competitive I wanted to represent BYU I I grew up a
big BYU fan my parent my grandparents my my my grandfather was part of KSL
Bonavville communications and helped set up that relationship ship back in
the 60s, you know, when BYU was was trash. Mhm. Um, and so they were I mean
they were Utah, they went to Utah and they converted, you know, as part of
that. So they were big BYU fans through the 70s and 80s and all the Lavel era
stuff. So we dove in naturally. So, I was a big kind of BYU knucklehead and I
just wanted to play for BYU, do something for BYU and and be a part of that
that wasn’t saying a prayer and doing inter murals with the opposing team
before the game, you know? You like more of a a competitive Yeah. I just I
just wanted to compete. I wanted to have fun. Were did you naturally I mean,
we talked about a little bit about your aversion to baseball like standing
around on the outfield was Yeah. There wasn’t enough contact for you. Did you
Did you have a natural affinity toward contact toward physical type of Yeah.
I I was I was always getting more fouls than points in basketball. You know,
it’s like anytime the elers quorm, you know, basketball stuff comes up, I I
have which is by the way the work like ward ball for people who are listening
this don’t understand what wardball is in the LDS church. Ward ball is the
worst. Well, I my first question always is like are are the the the fouls
still five? Is that the number still? I mean, is it gone up? Have we have
we’ve decided that it’s now 10? Cuz if it’s 10, then I I’m good for 10 fouls.
Well, if it’s five fouls, you’re maybe making it through the first period of
play. Maybe. And you know, listen, like we’ve got uh like in our ward, we’ve
got um Jimmy Balderson. We got all these guys that played division one
basketball. Mhm. And so, you know, you got 6’6 out there on the court and
little hobbit down over here that there’s only one way to manage that. Yeah.
I’m got to just let them know who’s in charge. Yeah, that’s right. So, I
Yeah. No, I I didn’t really take well to basketball. I loved it. Played
junior jazz, did all that sort of stuff, but never really um you know, took
to it like other guys. Um football, I loved wrestling. And I I I I grew to
appreciate and love over time. Hated it at first cuz I was terrible at it. Um
but yeah, all those physical contact sports for whatever reason, I just I I
gravitated towards Yeah, you you enjoyed that. You didn’t shy away from the
contact. And so and so your roommate says, “Hey, go try out for the for
the rugby team.” You make it. You’re physically fit. You don’t know
understand the sport, but you grow into it. And then is that would you say is
that where you developed your passion for this sport? Where it it it it
started there. Uh I got called on an LDS mission to Brisbane, Australia.
Highly regarded rugby country. Yeah. They’ve got two versions of rugby. They
love rugby so much. They’ve got regular rugby, which is what we play, but
then rugby league. Is that Australian rules? No. Australian rules. Everybody
gets different. Yeah. Aussie rules is a cool sport once you get to understand
it, but it’s completely different as well. They’ve got Okay. So, there’s, you
said there’s two versions of rugby. So, there’s technically there’s rugby. In
rugby circles, we call it rugby union because it’s it’s the original version
of rugby. Um the the the reason they call it union is because, you know, the
these groups were called unions. And so that’s kind of they’re the ones that
codified the rules, blah blah blah blah blah. Um, so that was the original
parent sport of American football, rugby league, and some other things. Okay.
Um, that’s what we play in the Warriors, and that’s what I played at BYU.
There’s rugby league that is uh it takes out some of the like the scrums and
the lineouts of rugby union. Uhhuh. To be able to just speed it up and get
the game going. It’s It’s basically Oh, just tackle. So, the ball is instead
of getting in the scrum in the Well, so that the scrum Yeah. When the when
the scrum gets replayed Uhhuh. Um it’s basically just they put it in and they
don’t there’s they’re uncontested scrums and then when you get tackled in rugby
league, um there’s not a what they call a ruck where there’s there’s a
contest of the ball. Yeah. In rugby league, it’s basically it’s kind of like
football. It’s actually a little bit similar. sort of like a a combination of
rugby and American football where you have like five downs, five possessions,
five tackles to be able to get x number of meters and if you don’t then you
you know you kick it back and then the other team goes but it’s constant
action and in Australia rugby league is is very very big. Um they have what
they call the the National Rugby League. Um, in fact, they came over to Las
Vegas and they’ve played uh two years in a row now where they play their
opening weekend series in Las Vegas. Um, it’s it’s actually a fun sport once
you get to understand it and appreciate it. Aussie rules is completely
different. It’s based off of Gaelic football from Ireland. It’s played on a
big old cricket pitch. It’s got like 12 million human beings on this field.
It’s like it’s like 20 on 20. It it’s it’s massive. But once you understand
that, it’s also pretty fun to watch. But everybody kind of confuses Aussie
rules with rugby. Yeah. You get all of those things misidentified if you’re
not familiar with it. And so is that now is the Australian rules the other is
the is that the one where they can line up for a kick? Yeah. So they’re
they’re kicking it between those those four post and then you got the guy
that comes out in white. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t I don’t know you know who
thought that was the coolest, you know, symbol of you scored the best points.
I don’t know, but people do it now. Yeah, but all the time it looks like he’s
like doing shooter McGavin or something. But but yeah, I so I went over to
Australia. I I served in Brisbane and um we just played touch rugby every day
uh or every Pday. Mhm. um and you know just began to once you’re in a country
that actually appreciates and and loves the sport, it it kind of takes on a
whole new level of context, right? You you can understand how it can impact a
community. You you can understand how it can unite a community. Uh whereas
before I just had fallen kind of in love with the sport and the contact and
you know the competitiveness. But once you understand how deep a a sport can
really impact people’s lives and that’s what I learned in Australia is that
rugby um has a a very significant power for good. So that’s when I fell in
love with it like just head over heels came back and then uh played uh with
the US national team from 2001 till about 2007. So came back did played with
the national team. So you didn’t go back to BYU. I went back to BYU. Did you
and played at? I picked up Yeah. Started playing at BYU and then we went and
played uh we played Cal who was the big team of the time at the time. They
were in char their their head coach and their assistant coach were the two
guys that were in charge of the US national team at the time. I played
against them and got picked up with the national from with the national team
on top of my stuff with BYU. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So, in in in that time you
finished at BYU playing with the national team for six years. Yeah. And when
you’re playing with the national team, are you is that are you earning a
living? No. It’s at the time it was still very much an amateur-based sport. I
mean, you’re paid a PDM per day. They take care of your travel. They take
care of your, you know, your stuff, but it’s like it’s peanuts. Well, what
kind of time commitment is that you’re playing with the national team? I mean,
that’s Well, so and that’s where, you know, I I started to get into sales and
uh Oh, executives. Yeah. I I I had had I’m kind of your typical BYU story
where I got married when I was 22. We had a baby, you know, the year that I
graduated, you know. So, we I had a family by the time I left BYU and I
needed to provide like I couldn’t do what most of these other rugby guys were
doing with with the national team, which is basically couch surf, go over to
France or England or New Zealand and just try to find a club that you could
play either semi-professional or professional rugby for. Um, that’s not
something that I could do with a wife and a kid, right? So, um, that’s where
I I connected with my good friend, uh, Justin Nadal. Uh, he and I had worked
together on some other things. He he was a former rugby guy at BYU as well.
Um, so I started actually working for him doing, um, talent acquisition,
executive search in the high-tech space. Um, and that was my job. But his
deal with me was always, you know, listen, if you’re making deals, I don’t
care what you do. You can do it from wherever. This was kind of before all
the remote, you know, working stuff. But, um, yeah. And, you know,
fortunately for me, I just figured it out. Um, you know, sales is is one of
those deals where you can you get out what you put in effectively. And, you
know, it’s all about relationships. And over time it got to the point where I
could leave for weeks uh and in some cases like for a month or two um and
still manage my business the way that I needed to and um you know I had to
rely on some other folks uh occasionally and they you know it was a big
support and Justin some of our other business partners uh with you know the
businesses that we were doing had to rely on those guys quite a bit as well
but they knew what it was that I was trying to do and we all agreed to it
upfront that as long is I was pulling my weight and I wasn’t sherking my
duties, then you know we could make it work. Yeah, that’s I mean you found
yourself in a in a nice situation because you were working with people who
were sympathetic to to rugby. It was and that’s pretty rare. I have to
acknowledge that, right? Like I couldn’t go to I I had tried and talked to a
couple other companies and you know it just wasn’t going to work. But um you
I consider myself pretty lucky that during those uh you know 03 to 0708 um
was some pretty significant life changes. We you know we added another child.
Rugby was still a part of our our life. Um but yeah no it led to some other
things and eventually led to me coaching and doing some other things as well.
So, what was your goal with with with rugby? Were was there were you trying
to connect with a professional league somewhere? Were you trying to make that
your full-time career or were you just passionate about the sport and you
wanted to continue to play? Bit of both. Um, I wanted to see how far I could
take it because in my position, uh, especially in rugby, playing scrum half,
it’s kind of like you’re you’re you’re one piece of the the quarterback. The
quarterback of of the rugby team is kind of the fly half, but you can’t
really do it without the scrum half. The fly half’s the number 10, the guy
that you were mentioning, you know, earlier. He’s the guy that kind of makes
the decisions and the calls and distributes the ball and, you know, manages
everything. But you can’t do that without a good scrum half. And to be an
American scrum half born and raised, um to be able to take on that challenge
of uh of representing the US, I wanted to go to a World Cup and I wanted to
be a regular starter. I wanted to see if I could break the the the mold that
historically had been the norm up to that point where there was never an
American that could play scrum half because it was it was a very nuanced
position and you had to kind of be raised born and bred, you know, in a rugby
culture and blah blah blah blah. Mhm. So, I was trying to kind of buck that
norm and see if I could break into a professional team and a professional
club and um but I wanted to try to go as far and as high as I possibly could.
So, Gotcha. And at that point, the professional clubs were outside of the
United States. Yeah. UK, Ireland, France were the Yeah. the the main ones and
then southern hemisphere and and that’s although there is now professional
league in the United States, that’s still the case. Yeah, overseas rugby is
significant. Yeah, France is typically uh regarded as the most commercially
successful league in the world. Top 14. Yeah, I it’s kind of People don’t
really Wait, but nobody says the I don’t even know what the team in France
what the teams in France are called. Everybody says like I may be getting
this totally wrong. Yeah. And if I do, we can we can edit it all out. Yeah.
But everybody thinks of like the New Zealand All Blacks. Like so that’s the
national team, right? And there the national team, but that’s what I
associate rugby with. It’s like New Zealand and Australia. Well, so you know,
pound-for-pound, New Zealand has always been and and and always will be the
most successful rugby country in the world. They’ve got like 5 million
people. They support five professional rugby teams. They also support one
professional rugby league team. And then they’ve got the All Blacks. And then
they’ve got another kind of second tier minor league called the National
Provincial Championship, the NPC. Mhm. Um I mean rugby, you’re given a rugby
ball when you’re born in the hospital over there, right? Like it’s lit. It’s
just how how it is. It’s your gift. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t get diapers. You
get a rugby ball. Just go pee out in the woods or something. But but you
know, Australia is kind of similar. Um, rugby isn’t as actually, you know,
cricket and Aussie rules is a little bit bigger over there. Rugby league and
rugby union are also big, but they’ve also got profession they’ve got
professional baseball in Australia. They’ve got professional basketball
basketball and yeah, but in France, uh, in the south part of France, um, like
rugby is God. Like it it is the culture. It is the religion. It is
everything. Soccer’s big and it always has been, always will be. But rugby is
the culture of that dominates community businesses. Um yeah, like Tulus,
Beeritz, all of Nice, all of these uh communities rally around their rugby
clubs. Wow. I never I never knew. Okay, so you wanted to potentially land in
a spot like that somewhere. Yeah. Okay. Uh well at at some point your playing
career comes to an end and do you make a conscious decision to stay involved
with the sport or do you go off and say well now I’m I have to be a
professional individual and something else and make a living. Yeah. Well I
think all of us at some point kind of have to make some of those decisions
whether we wanted to to make them on our own or not. Uh, I was dropped at the
last minute in 2007 before the the the team was named for the World Cup. I I
had gone to the 03 World Cup, which was a dream come true. Um, played in uh a
handful of games in the World Cup. Um, and I consider that one of, you know,
from a rugby perspective, one of my my greatest accomplishments. Uh but in ‘
07 I come back and had some injuries and some other stuff and I was getting
ready to to try to get named um to the national team for the World Cup and I
was in the rotation sometimes the starter sometimes not and then literally
the last roster that they named to travel to France for the 07 World Cup.
Sorry. you know, so not only were you not one of the three scrum halves taken
were dropping you completely. So that was tough, but that forced then some of
those life-changing decisions. And there’s some other personal things that
kind of came up around that time that that in hindsight I’m I’m grateful and
and feel blessed because of it. Um, but it also provided me an opportunity to
then say, okay, what how do I want to continue to give back? cuz this sport I
I met my wife through um my rugby buddies. I had my job, my career at the
time had come through my association through rugby folk and a lot of these
other people that I met, you know, in other business dealings and what it
kind of came through that. So, I was wanting to give back. So, yeah, I I my
my my brother was playing down at BYU at the time, so I wanted to go and just
maybe help coach and that’s kind of where I began to dip my toe into the
coaching stuff. Okay, let’s let’s leave it right there for a second because I
have all these questions about rugby. Yeah, maybe you can explain why these
things occur. One interesting thing if I have this correct is you mentioned I
mentioned a number 10. You also mentioned number 10 but 10 is the number is
specific to the position. So it’s not baseball, football, B, whatever. You
don’t pick your number. The number is assigned to you based on the position
that you play. Is that correct? That is 100% correct. And it’s it’s one of
the rugby you, you know, the unique things about it. You know, you’re
actually in rugby culture, you’re considered the caretaker of the jersey when
you wear it. Um that the jersey is not yours. It never is yours. you’re the
caretaker of the jersey. So, if you like you go to a lot of these
historically, you know, um big clubs or national teams like in their locker
room, um you know, you’ll have the number one jersey locker and you’ll have
the names of all like the top players that have played that position so that
when you sit at that locker, you’re like, I’m wearing the same jersey as Carl
Ha and you know, all of these guys that have come before me. I’m the
caretaker for the next 80 minutes of this jersey. I could have it one game, I
could have it a hundred, but I’m the caretaker. Um, so that’s kind of it’s
it’s kind of cool and unique and powerful uh when you look at it through that
lens, but it is sort of the the weird things. One of the weird things that
American sports fans don’t quite understand is that, you know, like Joel
Hodchin is our number 10, but some games like he hasn’t been number 10, he’s
been number 12 cuz he’s played a different position. We put another guy, you
know, just based off of selection, availability, injuries, or whatever. Like
he’s not always going to be number 10. Um, so yeah, it’s just one of those
kind of unique things. A little bit different. I like that though. The
caretaker Yeah. of the jersey. That’s interesting. Okay. What What