Why Early Deliveries Are Worse Than Late Ones

An early delivery is just as bad as a late delivery as it is for you know on the customer experience if they expected to arrive on a Tuesday it’s got to arrive on Tuesday. Welcome to the know your ship podcast presented by e-hub. I’m your host Frank Dolce. We’re on wise get. CFO and can I announce it do people know see. Yeah, not big on the title but yeah, no it’s it’s more about just the function and supporting our team and supporting our customers. So yeah, the operation side. Let’s say the functions there we go functions of CFO and COO at shippo. Yeah, about 3 and 1/2 years. And and the CEO of shippo was

a finance partner of yours at. Yeah, I was his finance partner at Amazon. Yeah, but yeah, it was it’s good getting the band back together. Yes, but everything started on the boat. I mean I think that’s where we wanted to start your origin story on the boat. Maybe that’s maybe that’s not giving you enough credit but it’s such a fascinating part of your story. Yeah, growing up in a. Like commercial fishing space. Yeah, growing up in a commercial fishing family. I mean a lot of unique family stories that people have but having a dad that was gone a lot from San Francisco to Nome Alaska throughout the year also afforded us a lot of great

opportunities a lot of vacation time where he’d be off for extended and then 12 years old I got to head up to Alaska and work on the back deck of. The FV Del Mar and it was. It’s awesome. Wouldn’t wouldn’t change it for the world. Is that so so you started at 12 years old going up there. Yeah, yeah, we won’t say I was really productive that first season up there for a little bit. Yeah, some seasoning. You got some seasoning. Yeah, and it was straight to the straight to the crucible of commercial fishing my first night there. It was it was pretty intense. Yeah. Lots of fog, lots of ships, nets hanging up on

each other. Wow. Yeah. Did you know early on, I mean 12 is early on, but did you know that that was something you wanted to do or did your dad kind of say, “Hey look, you’re going to come do this. This is the family business.” I I got to do a little bit in Puget Sound when I was younger. I mean, the chance to spend time with your dad Mhm. Uh it was all all I wanted, right? And he was We had a great time. We used to fish and hunt even before that. So, um the opportunity to mix those together was a dream come true. Yeah. We were talking a little bit before before

we started here uh about how meaningful it was to you and and you were saying something like, “If there’s a you know, if there’s a kid doesn’t know necessarily what they’re doing, if they have 6 to 8 weeks, go spend some time on a commercial fishing vessel.” Yeah. Why is that? You are going to learn a work ethic that you may not have known was possible in yourself because you have to. Um that environment is uh grueling. It is exhilarating. Um you know, at that age I was hopped up on a lot of Mountain Dew uh which may have helped. Um gave that up a long time ago. Um but you are subject to the

whims of the fish, the sea, of the state of Alaska when they open it and you just have to be ready and you might get woken up in the night if something’s going on. So, it really ingrains that work ethic but also the ability to be agile in whatever’s going on and there’s a lot of other professions that have to be a lot more agile or or hard work or more dangerous than commercial fishing, but it’s it’s amazing for an experience of a youth. Eventually you transition into the world of accounting and finance. Yeah. But I want to I I’d like to understand if there are still ties between that experience. How long did you

spend on the boat? Um nine seasons total. Um so through college we we fished together and had a had a not great experience where I went overboard one time. That was was a start to put a damper on how much even my dad wanted to fish. He’s amazing skipper, but you know, if you see your son do that we we didn’t tell my mom for a long time. Okay, wait. We don’t want to miss that story. Yeah. Yeah. We we want to talk about that story. I also want to talk about the lessons that you learned Yes. on the boat and how you’ve been able to take those lessons and incorporate them into the which

seem like very different worlds. They are. Okay. Okay, but first I mean isn’t that the nightmare of going overboard on a commercial fishing vessel? It it is in theory. Um it happened really quick. We had a hydraulic oil leak through a line. Went off the side in between the tender where we were delivering. Uh you know, you just it’s cold. Tide’s moving quick. Um Uh you hear the alarm go off. The people throwing ropes. Dad goes and jumps down from the bridge. Pipe pole was able to grab it. So, you know, it happened very quickly, but uh it’s it’s still not awesome. So, you in you’re in the water. You’re in the water. And Full

rain gear, boots, everything. Uh do you have like No. Okay. No. Not assuming you’re going to No no like no gear that’s going to keep you floating. Gear that makes you sink as it fills with water. What uh So, what kind of emotions are you experiencing? At that moment? definitely relief when you got to the back of the boat and just holding on to a a pipe pole for dear life. Um and then you know, pretty emotional for for my dad, the skipper. And so, we had a we had a rule we had a box of Red Vines in the the galley. And usually when the box of Red Vines or the Costco thing Red

Vines was done, we’d wrap up the season. We looked at it, still had a lot of Red Vines. Said, “I think we’re good. We’re good.” We It was just the two of us on the boat. We were doing some extra about an extra week up there together and said, “Oh my guts, let’s wrap it up and call it a season.” So, yeah, it was uh It just happens in a flash. And then realize how fortunate. Ah. That’s frightening. Terrifying. What was your relationship like with your dad? Amazing. Still is to this day. Uh doesn’t mean there wasn’t tension. He you know, he’s the skipper on that boat and says, “Hit the drum faster. Get the

fish out of the net faster.” And as a a youth, I’d say, “I know, I know, I know.” Which I hear my 15-year-old say all the time now. I go, “You don’t know. If you knew, you’d be doing it.” Um uh because he’s not just thinking about my work. It’s the rest of the crew. It’s the safety of the boat. He boats in in those days, the way it was set up, you’re often ramming like boats are ramming each other. Uh had a hole through my bunk one time from somebody’s anchor. Uh and it’s pretty intense. You keep your hands inside of the boat so you don’t you know, get snapped. And so, that intensity

has to flow throughout the boat. Everybody has to be on that same page. You might you know, everybody’s going to maybe have different styles and disagree in speeds, but you’ve got to really work and get through that flow. And so, uh there’s definitely skipper mode, but we had so much fun. If we’d have a closure, we’d go sport fish. He took me to Katmai. Saw the grizzly bears at the you know, the famous waterfalls. And so, we had a lot of fun as well. And getting to grow up in seeing that environment of commercial fishing is also, you know, there’s a um you know, you’re out in a boat for a while and then when

everybody gets in and I, you know, became a a driver, let’s say, for other skippers and crews as a 15-year-old where they’re maybe out celebrating at the pub a little bit. You know, it was it was a lot of fun. Learned to play Learned to play pool in the halls of Dillingham, Alaska. Can you still play? No, terrible. Terrible. Are you Were Was it How difficult was it to understand dad mode versus skipper mode? It was difficult at times. Um and actually the difficult part was me and and there was a one time we got into a pretty good disagreement. It was about 10 years ago. My dad and I are sitting out on the

campfire and I said, “I don’t know if you remember this, but I got pretty ticked off on the boat one day.” And it’s been sticking with me for a long time. And uh we’re cabin that we have and he’s like, “Al, I don’t, but it was a great moment.” So, you know, it was it was me as a teenager having two teenage kids that are still learning their ways. And as a dad that’s still learning my ways with teenagers, you know, it’s just growing experience. Yeah. Is that something as a growing experience, as a learning experience, is that something that you can incorporate in your work today, kind of this skipper mode, dad mode, and

and and how all of that functions together? I think absolutely. I I hope everyone does in their own respect because we are trying to run and build a customer-focused business that also has to be employee-focused. So, whether it’s my team, whether it’s anyone else in the company, are we doing right by them and right by the customer? And I think those are very aligned in that being on a boat, you’ve got to get fish. Weird, you know, it’s a long chain, but everybody wants, you know, maybe salmon at a restaurant or the grocery store and it starts with us catching it. And so if you think about that chain, you have to be excellent in

your execution, but you also have to be excellent in how you work with the team because if it’s not functioning on a boat, it’s not functioning on the company, the mission isn’t accomplished. I love these I love these analogies. I’m so glad that we’re talking about this because sometimes you just get, you know, we’re we both work in the software space and sometimes you like that that doesn’t you don’t think that applies, but it does. Like you know, you have that like especially the execution um and looking at the end result and all of the steps leading up to that and it is very much like being on a boat. That’s where it starts. Yeah.

Uh if for people that aren’t in supply chain or parcel or whatever segment and you get a package at your door, you just get a package at your door. The complexity to get it there all the way from sourcing and manufacturing the inventory to be done um is incredible and it’s a nerd’s delight. Um I don’t know if if you were like this I I love looking at the packages that come in, dissecting the labels and my wife and kids just make fun of me for it until about 2 weeks ago, my wife sent me a picture and says, “I have gone to the dark side.” and sends me a picture of a label from

uh Jitsu uh formerly Axlehire and she’s like, “I hadn’t seen this delivery. It warms my heart.” Oh, yeah. You’ve made it. Yeah. You’ve made an impression there. I think she’s she said that was it that was the line one time, you know. But it it’s it’s the fun part of um that entire journey. And whether it’s delivering the software, whether it’s working as a team as you do here at EHub um all the way to that delivery of the package, it has to work and it’s almost has to work perfectly. Well, yeah, and if there’s a breakdown, just like being on a boat, if there’s a breakdown anywhere in that process, you’re not pulling in

any fish. No, you’re not. Yeah. Oh, I love it. These are great. Maybe we should write a book. The fishing boat, the commercial fishing of supply chain. So, at some point, I I mean, you thought that maybe you were going to be a commercial fisherman for for your life. That was going to be your career. And And by the way, that season doesn’t last very long. That your your your fishing season. That season that I was on is is the summer. Um my dad’s entire journey of of each year would be January and parts of February. So, New Year’s Day, he’d leave for San Francisco, fish herring, uh and then a little bit March up

in Alaska. You’d start moving his way up Southeast Alaska, Ketchikan, Juno, uh all the way to Togiak, Nome, Kotzebue through uh May, come home for a couple weeks, head back Bristol Bay, but then it would be August, September, October, most of November at home, and then back to San Francisco. So, it was as a professional commercial fisherman, it’s it’s all year in in different fashions. Yeah, but your specific Yeah, I was squeezing in the summer season. Yeah. Got you. Yeah. Okay. So, what happened? Why didn’t you uh Uh my parents did not want me to take on take on that that line of work. Really? Um yeah, I really really wanted to at that time.

Uh they saw some actually, you know, at that time some macro economic things happening in the fishing industry, the cost of licenses, cost of boats. Um very very smart moves by them. Um and uh um probably wise for my heart and health and and stress levels as well. Um but yeah, I went to college and um ended up taking an accounting class and saying, “This is kind of fun. There’s a lot of problems to solve.” I know it’s it’s worth Nobody says that. No. Well, I know a few people. I should Those are good people. Those are good people. Not saying the others aren’t, but I had a I like I took an accounting, obviously

took an accounting class in fi- And like I had a an appreciation for it. Like that’s how I I guess that’s how I would feel about it. Like yes, absolutely. This all This is a super necessary function in running a business and you have to understand what’s happening inside. Like that was my That’s how I felt about accounting. But it feels like maybe you approach it you like you had a deeper passion, respect, feeling about accounting and finance. Um, I wasn’t an accounting major until my junior year, but I I had I was very fortunate with the professor I had. Dr. Ross Stewart at Seattle Pacific University. He’s the dean there now of the business

school. Um, he really focused on like accounting wasn’t a back-end operation. Um, accounting wasn’t uh, just something that’s reporting reporting the numbers. So, how do you mean just a back-end operation? I mean there’s if you think about the old anecdotes and uh, you know, the guys in the green visors that are just sitting there cranking away on Yeah, exactly. Um, uh, and I know I’m tooting my own industry’s horn, but if you’re not accounting for your business properly, you do not know what’s going on in your business. And an accountant that is sitting just behind the numbers is not the value add. And uh, it really that’s what carried on to my Amazon career and

and time spending in buildings as an accountant, uh, which got me loving supply chain because it’s really an infinite amount of problems you can solve with numbers. Uh, that’s a stupid thing to say, right? There’s a whole That’s what mathematics is, I guess. But from an accounting perspective it’s not I I absolutely completely align with what you’re saying. Yeah. So, it was fun. Okay, so you started kind of digging in like you you felt like I this might be my path forward. Yeah, um I’m an airplane nerd uh and growing up in the Northwest you know, Boeing all the manufacturing there. So, uh starting at Deloitte & Touche as an auditor um and Boeing was

my main client. Oh, really? So, getting to spend time on the factory floor and in 777s that are in production. It was It was a weird marrying of of things that I loved and how an airplane is actually built and working with again as an auditor not as you know, somebody that’s putting the rivets in or the panels. But, we were on the floor with them at times or all the way from the tooling factories. And so, it just It’s like these building blocks of interest. So, it’s not just a job. Yeah. What were you learning about in that particular role? I think learning’s the keyword. And um the advisory services that are offered to

say um it’s not necessarily about lower cost, but are there efficiencies? Are there things that with fresh eyes you’re seeing that maybe somebody that’s been running the program for a while hasn’t? Um I had a really cool opportunity for a few years. Uh they had the McDonnell Douglas acquisition. And then in Long Beach, California they were doing the modifications of the MD-10s and MD-11s for FedEx and UPS. And being down there and working with those programs where it’s how do we take these commercial airplanes, convert them for a whole new life into service for shipping. Which didn’t know this was all going to come full, you know, later down the day. Um and so again,

it’s it’s helping bring specialties. It was for us it was help bringing specialties and perspectives and insights that maybe others didn’t have and marrying those specialties together and giant puzzles. Like what kind of puzzles? Um all of the chains for the manufacturing or conversion of an aircraft go across many states, many countries, many partners, many vendors, suppliers, and all of those have financial implications. And how are two How’s tooling being consumed? If they’re going to go do a a big partnership with Mitsubishi, how is that contracted and how does that impact the profitability these planes and how to think about generating into the next model. All of these pieces have to fit together and we

got to be a part of that construction of the puzzle or sometimes auditing to say, “Hey, is this, you know, are we putting different LEGO kits together?” As you’re going through that role, are you thinking okay, here’s my career. I’m going to be with this big accounting firm, one of the big accounting firms, and that’s I’m going to do this, or did you have something else on your mind? Yeah, I mean, entered in like, “I want to be a partner at tons of mets.” Yes. Um but it was maybe getting into more of an operational sense. This is maybe, you know, the the commercial fisherman coming back in and like, “Okay, I want to start

to get front of house a little bit more instead of after something’s happened. Now, how do I audit it? How do I inspect it? How do I do the M&A deal related to it?” Uh and actually had an opportunities to go to Amazon in 2003 and in 2006 turned those both down. Maybe unwise if you look at the stock charts over the years. Um um but wanted to get a said like front of the house for business and finance. Uh and and so that evolved what I would, you know, not try to stay on that longer term path. Yeah. And so, you said I know this is heading to Amazon, but you had a chance

2003, you had a chance 2006, and then why did when and why did you finally decide that was the right move? I actually went and worked at a nonprofit for 2 years after Deloitte to go save the world as an accountant. Or at least that was my altruistic accountant save the world? Um, turns out no. No. Um, but this amazing organization But it was worth the effort. Yeah, but it was worth the effort. And I love the organization. CRISTA Ministries up in in Seattle area. Um, they did local, international uh, relief effort, uh, World Concern. They also have school a school program. That’s where my kids go to school now. Nice. Um, and they were

doing and still do amazing work. And I thought, “What a great opportunity to go try to make an impact, even though I’m, you know, maybe not the relief worker in Rwanda, um, my cubicle in Shoreline, Washington can help matter.” Yeah. So, in what ways did that In what ways did you think you could make a difference in that role? I think it had to be about creativity in capital allocation. And if you think about in the non-profit world especially, um, running a business is is challenging enough in a for-profit sense with capital allocation, but in a non-profit, you don’t have core revenue streams, right? You’re not out there selling a product. So, how are you

doing donations? How are you managing that? And in the non-profit world, there’s various cycles. So, how you allocate capital during the year, how you work with, uh, at that time USAID in getting grants to support international relief efforts. And then when something terrible happens around the world where we want to go deploy teams to to support that, um, that capital allocation and ensuring that it’s not impacting the rest of your company and the rest of the mission that’s being done is is vital. Well, I I’m glad that you brought that up. That’s That’s a fascinating part of your experience. And and you know, as you’ve as you transitioned back into the for-profit world, could you

lean on some some things that you learned in the in the non-profit area? Um, I think a lot of it always has to be about service and focusing on who are you who are you serving? Are we trying to only drive a bottom line or we actually trying to drive value? And and that’s maybe a little cliche, but I I do think that it impacts the mindset of how you look at running a a company and building a business in that this isn’t just about the end prof you know, investment return for our investors or employees. That’s obviously very very important and something that think about every day. But if in our business, we work

with large brands that then are selling or or shipping out to customers and the work we do impacts how people are getting their Christmas presents. Mhm. And so I have to be thinking about how am I serving my team so that they’re serving their customers so their customer can serve their customer. That chain has to flow. And and non-profit land, the margin for error is so much thinner because your resources are thinner. Um, and so keeping that front of mind is really important. It starts and it starts right up at the top. Like if you have if the culture is right from the top, it can flow down naturally. Now, that’s not to say that

you don’t have some hiccup somewhere along the way. It’s also more difficult if that culture isn’t there at the top for somebody underneath to take up that mantle and say, “No, no, this is the way we should be doing it.” You know, I know this is what but this is the way it needs to get done and then and then you have productivity that way. So, interesting interesting to think about. I want to talk about now is your So, you left the the non-profit and and took up the job with Amazon at that point. Yeah. Okay. And you were there for 12 years various different finance roles. But I would like to know like kind

of the insider’s perspective of during your 12 years, what were the amazing things? Cuz it isn’t a it’s it’s an amazing company. What were the amazing things that you learned that you could that you could take with you? What are some of the lessons that you learned that you thought I don’t think this resonates. Like I don’t want to take this piece of it with me at the at the next place. I want you to talk about anything you want about Amazon that you think is meaningful. But I think those kind of lessons learned would be interesting to to hear about. Yeah, and I was fortunate. I mean, I joined them in 2009. So, the

company was already fairly substantial, I would say the least. No longer just selling books. No longer just selling books. Um but when I arrived, it was to lead revenue accounting for the consumer retail business. And there was two of us for a company already that size. And and I thought some resourcing at nonprofits was tight. No, that was just the Amazon way. Frugal Mhm. ness was essential, which was nice because um it resonated well. But it was you did not have the option of sitting behind your desk or waiting for somebody else to do something. Amazon was all about velocity. Um speed matters, um but also of the utmost highest quality. And how that started

to manifest is hey, let’s the two of us and then the other revenue team grow and then inventory counting others. The accountants, we don’t just sit behind our desks. We’re in the buildings. Um a new building launches. Okay, how are we tracking the flow of data? How are we tracking the flow of numbers? Uh we got a vendor return returns over here in the corner have dust on them. Okay, what does that mean operationally and also financially? Means the boxes have been sitting there for a while. What’s going on? And so that inquisitive requirement of Amazon fit well with my personality, um but also just goes into hyperdrive and it’s it was amazing. Is that

something that’s always been part of your personality? Yes. Is this asking questions, inquisitiveness? Well, I hope so. I say yes, but Yeah. My wife may say no. Well, Yeah. join the club. So, has that developed over time? Where did you And And where did you Where did you learn that? How meaningful has that been in your career? Um very meaningful in intangible way because sometimes I don’t recognize it, but this was this is how my parents operated. They are just they’re go-getters, um you know, running their businesses, having a lot of, you know, fun family vacations, but it was always about very curious, very curious people. Mhm. And I hope to pass that on to

my kids. Mhm. Um but that curiosity of it’s not about not having enough or not having enough knowledge or not knowing enough, but it’s about saying, is there a better way to do this thing that I’ve been doing or someone else has been doing and we just take for granted. Is there some bit of information that I don’t know that can make our customer experience better? Mhm. And um I tell my team and I the number one requirement for my team is insane curiosity. And when people stop asking questions, that means they’ve decided to stop learning. And that’s not a good fit. And so I never want someone, even if you’ve been there at a

company forever or if you’re in your senior role, you have to always be asking questions. When When things are going well, human nature says, things are going pretty well. Like maybe it can’t be improved. And And maybe that’s the beginning of things becoming stagnant. Nail it. We have our weekly business review at uh ShipHero this afternoon, every Tuesday 1:00 Pacific. And every week the questions fly. And it’s never accusatory. It’s never why did someone do this or why did this not work or why did this go well um at a person, but it’s about a process and what did we learn and what corner we not looking around? And everyone that’s in that meeting, doesn’t

matter if you’re brand new to the company, if you’re the CEO, is participating, getting asked questions, asking questions, um and that culture is really key. Is the culture Could Could you say a blanket statement is the culture is how do we like the question The underlying question is how do we improve? How do we get better, but not for us. That’s an output. How do we get better for the person that’s getting their package at their doorstep. Mhm. That’s the input that has to drive all the way down. And then our company metrics, all of those become output actions. So trying to focus on a different action than saying I need to ensure that my

gross margin grows 1,000 bips. That’s an output. We want to focus on what are all of the micro decisions or operational pieces that will drive that. Yeah. Uh I think it’s so great. It’s so great because I think uh it’s easy to think about the output. And without without contemplating all of the various things that need to occur to get to the right or or to the output that you’d like. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of people are setting 2026 goals right now and you can have a grow company by X revenue. Fantastic and I hope you you know hope everyone blows out of the water, but that’s not setting that goals not going

to get you there. No. Do you have This is a little bit of a transition. We’ll get back to Amazon. Do you have because you brought it up are you setting personal goals for 2026? I’m terrible at Wait a second. That doesn’t resonate at all. I know. That does not align with all this stuff we’ve been talking about. I’m terrible at taking care of myself and doing those things and this is something my wife will agree. Well, let’s do that. Let’s do that this year. This is the year for you. Okay. Let’s go back to Let’s go back to Amazon and and and all of these lessons. It sounds like that really resonates with your

personality or maybe you just took your personality and applied it to Amazon. Do you think that was the case or was the culture of Amazon that just aligned with with the way you like to work? A little bit of both but the Amazon culture definitely becomes part of your DNA. The leadership principles I I still have them up on my wall and every once in a Is there a list? There’s a list that you can go out there online now. You know, starts with customer obsession and you get into a That’s a good one. That’s all of us. It’s all of us. Yes, but it’s all the way down the chain. So that’s why I

say it’s not just the company that’s buying shipping them but it’s their customers, right? We have to always be thinking all down that that chain. Dive deep. Our right comma a lot. A lot of people misuse that one at Amazon. I’m right a lot. No, there’s a comma there that says you are right a lot which doesn’t mean you’re right all the time. And so really breaking those down, they do become part of your DNA. When I left Amazon, that was one thing our CEO said is hey, there’s some nanobots we’re going to have to get out of the system but let’s you know, keep that core foundation. He was there 19 years. So we

had a lot of a lot of McConnell. Got you. Yeah. Is there any one principle or something that you’ve taken and that has become kind of foundational for you as you’ve moved along? Um I ownership. Mhm. Ownership is one of the the core principles at Amazon um and is something that we’re big in uh at Shipium. I know just based on our conversations EHub way as well as everyone like you’re not just an accountant or you’re not just a finance person if I think about core profession or an engineer. You you’re thinking and engaged in the entire customer process and the journey. Mhm. And so you’ve got to own and if you see something that

doesn’t look right, it doesn’t matter if it’s not your area. You figure out at least who can work on that or who can fix it and then you partner with them. And so ownership is key. I think that’s very much the culture here um and it sounds like at Shipium where you are currently um that is also the culture like um we we don’t really I mean we have our silos, but we don’t operate in those silos. If something is happening, then we’re wandering around and finding solutions or finding w- wherever the the problem exists and how to how to solve that. So I I like that um and I’m curious about it’s it sounds

like that was also an Amazon principle, but I mean Amazon is so big. How do you continue to manage that? How do you get people to think that way and not be contained in their spaces? Yeah. Um extremely hard and I think they’ve and as we’ve all probably seen in the news and as they de-managerfied and taken out levels, right? That’s part of the process where they got so big and you lose some of that core culture. It doesn’t mean that the people are bad. No. It just diffuses some of the impact. Mhm. And you’ve got to get back to the core. And so uh did you experience any of that in during your time?

Yes. Yeah, and that’s you know, after my last 4 years I actually had the opportunity to lead product engineering and data science teams building out our internal financial systems as well as fraud prevention and a money laundering program. Seeing what people try to perpetrate financial crimes on the Amazon was fascinating and terrifying experience. But it became a much more bureaucratic place. And that’s when my just said it’s it’s time to make a change and I was very fortunate to have a wife that was supportive of that. Took a few months off, snowboarded, called it a sabbatical, spent time with the kids, did some volunteer work, and then jumped right into this. As you look back

on that 12 years at Amazon, how would you describe that period? Some of the best 12 working years possible, even in the hardest times, because you are stretched mentally, sometimes a bit emotionally because you just the work pace. I thought the work pace in fishing was high. It was. Thought the work pace in busy season at accounting was high, but Amazon was always on. It was always on. And that was part of the culture and it was wonderful. But that curiosity, the fact that I got to be pushed by amazing leaders there to expand my capabilities where I focused to be working with product and technology teams in a way that I never had to

design changes. I got to lead a team a month before peak. November 1st we actually pushed code change that flowed through all of our fulfillment centers at Amazon on a very high risk um time to help us do finances and accounting better. Mhm. And as part of that process working with the Amazon fulfillment center software people, they’re focused on all they need to do to get ready for peak and you’ve got this finance nerd in here saying, “Hey, actually we need to change all your data flows.” How’d that go? Again, great partners, but they weren’t necessarily open to it in that short of time frame. But, it’s that environment where you are forced to work

cross-functionally and you don’t think of it as cross-functional, you just think of it as I’m I’m working with the engineering team because we’re trying to get to the same mission. So, there’s not let’s bring the silos together. There cannot be silos. Mhm. Yeah, I love that. Uh how meaningful was it for you to have this foundation of a really solid work ethic that you learned as a 12-year-old? And how meaningful was it to have, you’ve said this a couple times now, amazing leadership? I think we’ve all experienced amazing leaders and maybe not amazing leaders. I hope for the majority people it’s been amazing or at least good. But, you really find out who you are

in those situations of how do I deal with a poor leader? Mhm. And what do I not want to emulate? Because in those situations, it can be very easy to hop on the train and say, “People are getting ahead because they’re following that path or following that style. Um and I’m just not going to do that.” Yeah. Maybe that’s just not like That’s really interesting. Maybe uh individually climbing the ladder it that you I made some poor choices. get pulled that that way and yeah. Could have climbed a little bit faster, but um But, foundationally that didn’t resonate. It’s not what drives me. Yeah. It’s not what drives me. That’s great. Love that. Okay. So,

you you you had this unbelievable experience at Amazon, got to take a couple months off. Yeah. And then, boom. Here comes Shipium. Yeah. Uh very fortunate that our CEO and co-founder I was his finance partner. So, he was the vice president of retail systems, led supply chain tech, built supply chain tech for Amazon. So, if you’re not familiar, what does that mean to be a finance partner? This This is you’re talking about your Amazon experience now. What does that mean that you were a finance partner to this individual? So, every um say VP and and even maybe down to a director at Amazon has like a dedicated finance leader. May have a team. Mhm. And

you’re joined at the hip. When you’re in doc reviews, so as we were talking about last night, the Amazon there’s no PowerPoints. Every business review we’re writing a six-page narrative with four to 20 pages of appendi- appendices plus financial statements, all of this. And you have to be joined at the hip on the success of the organization from how we’re hiring to what is our product roadmap to HR. So, there’s a there’s a focused HR partner, a focused finance partner for every one of those leaders. And you spend a lot of time together. Mhm. And you do a lot of writing together, you do a lot of thinking together, maybe a lot of arguing, hopefully

agreeing together. And it’s a really great opportunity where you’re getting to sit right next to so, on the right side of your business VP in these meetings where you’re plotting out the next 3 years for where that company or that part of the company’s going. And you’re getting senior team members of Amazon you read for 30 minutes, maybe 45, and then you get a lot of feedback. And so, you you get to learn and you have to be able to partner well, Mhm. but also hold each other accountable to say, I’ve got to make sure that the team is hitting metrics, financial measures, all these pieces. And that VP is doing product design and vision

and scaling the teams. Uh and so very fortunate to have a number of amazing business VPs that I supported in including Jason, Jason Murray. Mhm. Who’s your Yeah. CEO currently? When you were putting together and building those metrics at Amazon, did you how would you label those? Were were they reasonable? Were they a stretch? Were they I don’t know how we’re ever going to achieve this. Um sometimes all of the above, but it was often a stretch to I don’t know how we’re going to achieve this. And it would often start with there being an idea. Mhm. And we need to measure it, but we don’t even know what the metric is. And those are

some of the hardest pieces. Mhm. Of you have to design what is the metric and the layers underneath that that are going to let us know very quickly is this the right decision for the customer? That then is driving the right business output. And then never just allow that to be static. Mhm. And continually evolving it. And so we think about trying to build out Alexa shopping or or other businesses where it’s okay, somebody set a goal and said we need to make this go from a $2 year business to $50 year to a billion in X years. That’s ridiculous. Mhm. And maybe the goal was ridiculous, but the thought process and the exercise of

now saying okay, it’s not just an Excel model that says we’re going to get to a billion. We actually have to go build out the measures in a fine detail that teams can execute on it. Amazon It’s at that. Really? Phenomenal. I mean that’s that’s how they drive operating leverage. Because you’re never static in a measurement. You’re always focused on how is it impacting the end customer of the business, not just what is the result of it. And um not satisfied, so we’d say, “I’m happy with the progress, but I’m not satisfied with where we’re at.” And so continually fine-tuning and coming up with different ways to to measure and and drive growth. Got you.

Tell us about uh give us the high level of Shippeo. What what is what is Shippeo? Where where does it exist in the market? So Shippeo um is generated from this Amazon concept of customer obsession. And uh both co-founders uh started as SDEs in 1999 together. Um and so worked their way up building out fulfillment center software, and then Jason building and and leading the Amazon supply chain optimization tech org. So there’s a lot of common themes in the DNA as far as that customer focus, and how do we improve the shipping uh and delivery experience. But Shippeo itself is a software services and platform company that is bringing intelligence and the ability for a

customer to make a promise they can keep and keep a promise they’ve made. And underneath the hood of that is how do we effectively drive shipping decisions? Is it lowest cost? Is it speed? And using uh as two examples, and then using um our own machine learning models that are core foundation and data to drive those decisions on scale that a company wouldn’t have gotten without a core platform. Mhm. And so we really see ourselves as um you know the forefront of cloud ML now AI companies that are out there driving small execution decisions on a larger claim of platform to drive that experience for you and I that are getting packages or having people,

you know, send packages for Christmas having their experience be delightful. Mhm. Did you know all of this prior to starting at Shippeo? No. So what was it? Why were why was this an interesting opportunity for you? Well, I mean the the co-founders did a great job of talking to their business model and and what they want to, but the depth of what it was I didn’t not understand, but it was the excitement and both from a personal perspective getting to getting to work with Jason again and I know his leadership style, I know his focus, his intensity and we work very well together in that that fashion. But they weren’t just trying to build a

better mousetrap. It was let’s build something completely different. And that was it was really an exciting opportunity to say we get to go be builders. And I hadn’t been feeling like I got to be a builder again because it became more of a manager and that that builder capacity is it’s the best. Yeah. So what are the things that you think you’re doing really well at at Shippeo? What are what are the things that set you apart in the market? [snorts] It’s both technology people both three things technology people and process. The foundation of our technology is is truly impressive and the rapid iteration and development cycles that our product and engineering teams are moving

on behalf of the customers. It doesn’t necessarily satisfy them. Customers always want more, but the the speed at which we’re able to iterate and develop and expand capabilities is is fascinating. Marrying the right people that are thinking about those customers problems and not just how do we build tech is the other fun part. Getting to work with uh customers internationally, domestically on how they choose a carrier or how they expand their footprint. Um we’re not just a service provider. I think it’s one of the things that our companies both are really focused on is being that service provider, not just a software provider. Mhm. And so pairing that intelligence of the people with that process

and technology to guide the customer journey and not just be somebody that says, “You’re using our software. Here’s your report card. Thank you very much.” Mhm. Yeah. Have you made some any mistakes along the way? Are there things that you look back and say, “Oh, maybe we should have done that differently.” Absolutely. Um and you know, retrospective skin For sure. It’s not uh not common to you know, only Amazon or Oracle companies, but we’re big on retrospective. So, uh you know, whether it’s going back to how we allocated capital uh as we’re doing, you know, year planning. Shoot, should we have done something different with go-to-market in Q1 instead of waiting to kill Q3? My

sales guy’s going to record this and tell me, yeah. Um or did we hire the right engineering profile? All of those things, are we growing too fast or growing too slow? Um there’s moments of times I look back and say, “Gosh, I wish I would have done something a little bit different.” It’s always easier in hindsight. Um and then uh I have I have a really unique opportunity, I believe, at Shippeo um as do our other employees, but I work closely with our customers, not just finance. And there’s been times where we’re trying to help them launch or they’ve got a really big problem to solve and and I’ll hop in to to help out

and um you know, sometimes I’ll I’ll dive a little bit too deep and say, “No, I should let the experts uh handle this or I should you know, not not try to butt myself in because I’m curious and asking questions, which you know, it can sometimes distract people.” Yeah. Yeah. When we were talking offline, you were telling us about an experience on the boat. You were out at sea for extended periods of time. Um, you got to eat a lot of fish. And there were times when you didn’t want to eat fish, like you were tired of fish. You ended up making deals. If I’m If I’m describing this incorrectly, you tell me, but you

kind of ended up making deals with other boats, other people out on the out on the water. Can you explain that? Yeah, to us how that occurred. You can’t just operate as a single entity, whether it’s me as a deckhand or as a crew boss or as a skipper. You can’t just work alone. And the same goes with the fleet. You You know, there’s a lot of boats up there uh fishing Bristol Bay. And so it’s also spread over a very large section of water. And you need to develop and hold relationships that are trusted so that you can call them and say, “Hey, I’m observing you know, fish are increasing. Come in and get

on on this, right?” It’s not just about being selfish and saying, “I’m going to hold this hold all the hold all of this.” So, you have to build those partnerships and relationships where you can trust information and you know the person enough to say, “Am I giving them information that’s going to be helpful? Or am I giving them information that’s going to draw in, you know, unnecessary stress? So, if their boat is a 3-hour run away and and we think that there’s a lot of you know, fish coming in over the next hour, giving them that information might not be helpful in the moment because it’s going to distract them from their mission because they

can’t get there in time. Mhm. And so, it was that discernment of how to not just be a partner, but a good partner. And when to share, when not to share, and then how to come together in almost retrospective of how you can work. And the same happened with the tenders. So, we’re talking a little bit of like the Deadliest Catch boats, that’s where we deliver our fish to. And you you get to know those skippers and if you can build a relationship, they can help you do your laundry cuz on a 32-ft boat, there’s no washer and dryer. Uh you can use a real shower. And but you have to build a relationship. You

have to say we’re doing this together. Um whatever this is. And um it it just makes everybody’s experience better. And we’re very fortunate. My my dad is that’s his ethos. He is always focused on making others and their process better or their their partnership or their their lives. Some my mom as well and and we saw that on the boat. So he had developed long-term relationships um that could be trusted. Yeah. Well, and I’m I wanted you to tell that story because I think it’s interesting the way that you approach your business life and I think that’s foundational is building relationships and this concept of making each other better. I mean, you’re in a competitive

situation but is there a way to make each other better? I hope that’s foundation of our relationship. And and I think that’s something that you think about in you know, taking that boat experience and incorporating that in your business life today. Yeah. Um if you think about when you’re out there and you maybe covered in salmon scales and others and somebody gives you the opportunity to get a shower after you know, not just using a bucket and a rag. It’s invaluable like you’re endeared to that person. They provided you an experience that was really critical. And so yeah, in our relationship and others, it’s obviously not a shower in fish scales. But when we do

the right thing on behalf of um you know, or on behalf of that other partner or we look out for each other even if there is competitive environments, we know that we’re we’re always going to do right. And we can build that long-term trust. Yeah. I love that. I think we should do t-shirts called showers and fish scales demonstrate the power of partnerships. Like it’s weird looks. The power of partnership. Showers and fish scales. I don’t know. That seems like it has something. Okay, tell us uh what are you excited about? What What gets you motivated to go into work and what you’re doing at Shippeo and what the product means for the marketplace. I

love Monday mornings. What? Yeah. Um I’m not a morning person, but I love getting up. What What challenges are we going to accomplish on Mondays? I love that. And um that’s what gets me excited. Where we’ve got a team that is saying what challenges are we going to conquer today? Not just this quarter or this year, but what am I going to conquer today? Um and that’s what gets me up because that’s core to our our ethos. And we really feel we have a responsibility to help push our customers to do more of that as well. How can they be better through whatever service or software we’re facilitating? Mhm. You’ve mentioned this a couple times

about how you love your team and the team is very motivating. It sounds like that is core to the business is putting finding good people or even developing good people or people There’s a There’s just a people core. People. Yeah. Yeah. Where Where does that come from? Is that Is that true? Is that how you think about the the business and what you’re doing? Absolutely. And that was core to uh the culture of the core founders set. Um you know, we’re serious people that don’t take ourselves too seriously. And um we’re going to be very crisp operators, but you’ve got to be humans first. And so having that aspect of we’re looking for people that

are going to be intense, that have sharp edges, but they’re still good people. You’ve always got to focus is it a good person? How do you How do you manage uh when there isn’t good alignment? It’s tough. We’ve been through some uh you know, every company goes through this. Um you know, I’m just people have given me feedback as well of, you know, a little little too sharp on that one. Dial it back. Um And That’s always fun. Uh you know, it is ensuring that even if that employee or that leader is not going to be the the right fit or hasn’t been the right fit, Mhm. um you still want to treat them with

kindness. Yeah, sure. And you still want to make sure that you’re you’re doing the best for them in their career um because it doesn’t mean that they’re a bad person or they’re bad at their job. It’s just maybe not the right fit. And focusing on that aspect because everyone has good qualities, but it just might not be the right fit personality skills for that role, for that team, and then helping them in that next stage of the journey. I think it’s so important and that maybe we disregard that when people are unhappy at work. Maybe it’s less about the individual and more about there’s just not good alignment. Like that it’s not a good fit.

And once you find alignment, you know, that the person become Yeah. becomes a real a real person. So, that to be thoughtful about that is very important. What steps do you take to drive alignment within your team and here at E-Hub because that that seems very core to to your mission here? Well, we’ve had I mean, that’s that’s a really interesting question. And uh I think one of the things about E-Hub is like I I was I was fortunate to be around in the very beginning and I’ve had opportunities to to dip my toe into many different roles and so and just naturally finding a really good fit. But I think we also give that

opportunity to people who we’ve had several people come in and let’s say for example they start out in a sales role that seemed like yeah you’re going to be a really good salesperson and it just like it wasn’t there wasn’t mesh it couldn’t we couldn’t and all of a sudden something else opens up that person has interest and you’ve it becomes like everything aligns and and happiness productivity contri- contribution to the team everything becomes aligned uh and it just it just works. So I think within the walls having that opportunity to look at different functional areas and find the right alignment. I think that’s been really meaningful. So it sounds like you make a very

purposeful effort thinking about the team to not just say you are this here is your label and you are stuck with this because you know that they might have different skill sets and you’ve built that culture of looking around the corner to see how they might fit better. Yeah well I think it’s like you you said talking about the core like it’s not neces- it’s not like they’re a bad person right? It’s lack of productivity in a certain area doesn’t mean you’re that like that’s not an indication of a bad or a good person. And so you know take a good person and find the right alignment and then everything seems to work. Yeah I

maybe speaking too broadly for for both of us but if uh our CTOs came in and said we need you to write code for this um it wouldn’t go well. Doesn’t mean we’re bad people, but we’re not the right fit for that. Yeah, I’m I’m probably not going to do that very well. Who knows? Yeah, maybe it’s an undeveloped skill that you don’t even know. Yeah. I’m sure that’s 2026 goals. Absolutely. You know what? Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Let’s dig into you know, who who Jeff really is. Is there something that that you people don’t know about you? I mean, we’ve talked about we’ve talked a lot, but

I don’t think so. I’m generally, uh, an open book. Mhm. Um, I think the the thing that comes out most with people is, um, they may not see what my wife calls business Jeff side, and, um, uh, they don’t see it often, but it’s I get very quiet and intense and focused and angry on the inside. I don’t swear, I don’t outburst anything, um, in in general. But, the tone will come out, and people that haven’t seen that, um, it can be a little bit startling. And so, I’ve been receiving some coaching at home on how to contain business Jeff. But, isn’t that useful? Isn’t business Jeff useful? It’s useful in the right mechanism, but

it’s got to be done for the right reason and not just like you’ve hit your limit, right? What is the purpose that’s trying to be driven? Is it to get a point and still not jump on somebody? I think we could all if we were all more thoughtful, like you are so thoughtful about Execution and thoughtful and being thoughtful are sometimes two very different things. Well, yeah, that’s true, but I think that’s a great lesson. It’s to kind of be try to be more thoughtful, and then, of course, the execution needs to be Yeah. of being Yeah, mistakes every day. Okay, what is the best book or educational uh, material that you’ve ever read or

utilized. Wow. Ever. Ever. It has to be ever. I listen to a lot of podcasts. Mhm. I can’t pick out one. Um I don’t know my ranking this year, but last year uh was in the minuscule percentage top like business finance RevOps nerd podcast listeners on Spotify wrapped. So, I consume a lot of information. Yeah. Um Um man, you actually stumped me. Okay, so let me ask you let me let me re- reframe it. Yeah. What is the stuff that you Well, you’ve already mentioned it. What is the stuff that you trend toward in terms of um learning, fulfillment, yeah. Um uh As my pastor will kill me that I didn’t come up with like

an answer cuz like the best thing I’ve learned is from the Bible. Um Well, that’s we Okay, we all Let’s all agree with Okay, good. Okay, got it. Um yeah. Not everybody has the same beliefs, but um I think it it has to be around framing of um relationships and uh you know, whether it’s books on marriage, books on being a parent. Um I’ve had privilege and honor of being married almost 23 years. Um my wife teaches me something um every every week, maybe every day. Mhm. Um but the time that we’ve spent focusing on how to be a better couple or better parents definitely helps me be a better person, which in turn hopefully

helps me be a better leader because you can’t I don’t believe you can be two people and do it successfully. So, you’ve got to pick which side you’re going to be. That’s so I think that’s so great. And you know, for for anyone who’s been in a relationship, um if you’re struggling in your relationship, you you can’t It’s like you can’t separate it. You can’t separate it when you go to work because it’s just It’s like on your mind. Yeah. It’s on your shoulders constantly. So, getting that I love that. Getting that right and how that flows down through the rest of your life. We do an app We do an app that I’m always

sending out paired or every day it’s a question. Oh. And last week actually it asked what do you think is the most overrated piece of relationship advice? This is a really hard one. I I didn’t know what to say and but it kept coming back to this this phrase of happy wife, happy life. Mhm. Technically true. But what I don’t like about the advice and what we ended up talking about is it it then becomes morphed into not being purposeful. So, am I doing something just to placate or just to make somebody happy? Or am I focused on serving them, helping them grow, helping them help me grow in a way that there’s joy and

not just happiness? And again it gets back to why are we doing what we’re doing? And are we thinking about that other person or other relationship or that customer first? Yeah. I you know, it’s it goes so it goes so much deeper than that too because uh like you said um the simple well, maybe it feels like the simple thing is to just do the surface thing. If I do this surface thing, then that is going to make this you know, this person happy short-term, whatever. But if you do the work, if you build the foundation then you have I mean it’s the whole concept of the obstacle is the way. Working through the problem.

Love in a book. Yeah. Amazing, right? Do you Do you Is that something that you kind of follow stoic philosophy and Uh I’d say on the the periphery. I mean there’s principles that the principles um and uh I think um uh he’s done a number of great books uh uh on the topics and it’s more about how are we how are we thinking about these challenges? How are we thinking about the relationships? And definitely definitely resonate with that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there’s a little insight into Jeff Tamman. Anything else that we should know about you? Um if I like to ask this question. Well, there’s actually since you’re in the industry, I’ll have to ask

this other question. It sometimes it goes funny. If you could do anything else, if you could be anything else and be successful, what would that be? Uh I’ve said this for a long time in our relationship. I would be a charter boat captain in the Caribbean. That’s like That’s your dream job. Dream dream retirement. But that’s achievable, right? Oh, it’s totally achievable. And what does it So you’re just going to take people out Take people fishing. Oh. And live somewhere beautiful water, scuba dive in my off time. But take people fishing. I love taking people fishing. Uh we go salmon fishing in Peter Sound. And especially if someone’s never caught a salmon before and you

hook them on up. I know a guy. Yeah, you know a guy? Well, we can take care of that. Um it’s just so much fun and I love doing that. Well, I know something about you that you didn’t say and I that I don’t think many people would know. You’re a deep sea diver. Wait, is that right? I just open water scuba dive. Yeah. Open water scuba diver. Yeah, it’s like the It’s not very fancy, but it’s the the basic certification. I can go dive and I’ve had the opportunity to dive in a lot of places. Oh. Okay. You’re not the guy that’s holding your breath for 17 minutes and be dragged down to the

bottom of the ocean and then give me those oxygen tanks. I’m with you. Yeah. Like that thing I’ve watched a couple of documentaries on that. It’s incredible. I’m not in the physical condition to do that. So, that’s not even an I don’t even want to be in the physical physical condition to do that. That’s terrifying to me. But it all gets back, I mean risk management. Yeah. You’re underwater, you’ve got you’ve set your dive computer, you know your routes, you got to pay attention to the tides, got to pay attention to your air, you all all those things flying all working in a company that’s all about risk management, thinking ahead of the decisions instead

of waiting for the decisions to come to you. There’s so many analogies here. With your flying, with your diving, working on the boat, where you’ve ended up. The fishing trip we’re going to have together next year you come to Seattle. not kidding. Yeah. You don’t offer it because I like We’re let’s set a date. Okay. I’m in. All right. Last week of July is when king salmon opens. Is that the is that the time to go? Like 3 days. Here’s what I don’t want. Like I don’t want to be with overcast, lightning, swells, and you the boat’s like doing going like this. Yeah. Do I have to do that? We’ll avoid it. Avoid it. But

it’s early. Those days be on the boat 4:00 a.m. first light. Oh, but cup of coffee and sunrise over the Cascade Mountains. It doesn’t get much language. Is there a pastry involved? We can make pastries. Okay. Absolutely. If we could do like That’s always the thing. I mean you you you said like you’re you’re an early riser, but and but and people talk about being an early riser, but then you say get up at 4:00 a.m. Like you’re be on the boat at 4:00 a.m. and then people are like wait, I guess I’m not. But once you do it? I don’t know. For me, it’s like it sets the whole day. I have this sense

of accomplishment. Yeah. I don’t know. Does that seem outlandish? No, not outlandish at all. I know there’s a lot of bad things that happened during COVID pandemic, but one of the best things was at Amazon especially all the meetings got kind of pushed back schedule-wise. So in the summers, I’d go out a couple of co-workers and we’d go out a couple of times a week. Go limit out on kings or silvers and then start our meetings maybe on the boat. [snorts] Then go into work and and what I would tell some of the leaders even back then is if we have a problem I can remedy this by either bringing you fresh fish and Dungeness

crab or we can just have a problem. And you know, we again trust the relationships. You could joke with the with the leader, but that was really important to me. It was a fun way. It’s great to unwind and there’s nothing better than starting the morning on a boat or first chair on a ski lift, right? All those all those little experiences where it’s good anxiety and good drive and and so challenging. Well, I wonder if we’re not making a mistake by not incorporating that in our work experience. It’s having something like that once a week. Maybe it is. You you know what? Eating’s on this day they’re a little later in the day, so

you have this morning opportunity. I think maybe we we we don’t take advantage of that. Oh, terrible at it. Absolutely terrible. Me, too. Yeah. Well, we’ll figure that out. We’ll figure it out. All right. Where where is Shippit going? We are so laser-focused on operational excellence on behalf of customers and being able to grow. I am so pumped and a little nervous for 2026 and 2027 and and what not just the targets were setting as a business but really the opportunity to grow our customer base and the things that we’re doing on behalf of them. Mhm. Um we could be seen and just be a great execution software but we know that we have the

data, we have the people, the intellect to then become a true long-term trusted partner of our customers and put prospects. Um and that’s that’s a big focus area. How do we make them smarter at their business? Some of our AI releases we’ve had to be able to seamlessly integrate into their work. Sorry, I’ll try not to go like super nerd. No, you’re good. Um it’s really fascinating to see where we are in the span of technology and how people are both afraid and adopting artificial intelligence into their workflows and a big focus we have internally and for our customers is to make it easy and intuitive and enlightening and a delightful customer experience. And that’s

that’s a big driver for this recent season and and the year ahead. What you’re doing sounds amazing. And I love the focus. I think what I really have enjoyed about this conversation is the thoughtfulness in what you’re building. And I think that has been a story that resonates throughout your life of um there’s an output. Are we taking all are we being thoughtful about all of the steps to get to that output and maybe that output is a package on somebody’s porch and maybe that output is customer experience but it’s easy to say that There’s a process and I think the thoughtfulness about that process is really meaningful. And for people who are customers and

partners of Shippeo, that is really meaningful to have that insight. So, I really appreciate that. I hope so. And it makes it fun. Yeah. I mean, I get the opportunity to work with a lot of customers, a lot of supply chain leaders, their finance leaders, uh a lot of carriers, a lot of partners every single day. And the pace of innovation and focus, um I think it’s moved from a package is just a package to this is truly a delivery experience. And that chain of partnerships, that chain of technology, that chain of people is essential. It’s not, you know, that UPS truck or FedEx truck or name and carrier is essential in that, but all

the steps up that chain. And so, you know, for my team, for I’m sure your team, it’s like we just need to nerd out about that. And I I’m already looking forward to the labels that I’m going to my my wife saves them for me and the packages so I can um try to figure out how all those pieces came together so it can be better. Well, I, you know, I still think it’s one of the areas where it it may be a little lacking or or maybe people don’t understand how meaningful the experience is of receiving a package for the for the consumer. And how I mean, I I kid with my wife like

we’re going on I think we’re going on 1,762 consecutive days of a package landing So, I love the measurement. I think it’s that. I’ll have to go check my number, but but there’s a time when you pick up a package and you’re like, “Oh, yeah, I know. Okay, I got this. And there’s times when you pick up a package you’re like wow, it’s here. I got this package and the way that it’s presented and how it’s delivered and the packaging and everything that the customer experience is still a place where I think we could we could improve. It It is We We have the privilege of working with a customer in the collectibles business. And

something that’s important for them is if it is supposed to arrive or it’s a pre-release of, you know, a sneaker or a trading card, like it’s got to arrive on an exact day. Right? Because that might be worth something. Like there’s additional value to that. Not that every package isn’t important, but if you’re thinking about high-end products, you’re thinking about collectibles, an early delivery is just as bad as a late delivery as it is for, you know, on the customer experience. If they expect it to arrive on a Tuesday because of contractual relationship or security of the package, it’s got to arrive on Tuesday. Mhm. And so you have to be very thoughtful in how

you build the software, how I execute on those things to make sure that experience is delightful. Cuz if it arrives early and they’re not home, and someone steals it, and that’s a terrible experience. Yeah, absolutely. I actually think that’s what um Amazon did best. It’s not training people to think about is it a two-day delivery? Mhm. Right? For a long time there was and still a lot of money going into speed of delivery. Mhm. I think that what Amazon did for the consumer is train predictable delivery. Mhm. Didn’t matter if it was 5 days or 10 days or 2 days or 2 hours, Mhm. but if you say I’m going to get something on Friday,

Mhm. you can plan for I’m going to get it Friday. It’s expectation. And the expectation. And then even if something happens along the chain and it doesn’t show up on time. Over the course of your relationship with that company or, you know, name any brand, you’ve developed that trust that most of the time if they say it’s going to be there on Friday, it’s going to be there on Friday. And that’s what we we hope to achieve as well. We can work with a, you know, partner for 2-hour delivery if if a customer wants to enable that. Or they can do the slowest ground method possible and our software can do all that. But we

want to ensure that they’re provided the experience of predictability for their customers, which hopefully helps their business, their lift, their growth, if you do delivery promise. But it’s about that long-term trusted consumer company and then provider relationship. Yeah, absolutely. Communication along the way. Have you ever had that experience? I’ve had that recently. Which is so odd in today’s in today’s delivery world of making order ordering something and then getting a confirmation and nothing else. And then you’re like oh man, I just got scammed. What happened? I put my credit card. 5 days later it shows up and you’re like what? But I’m not going to I’m very unlikely to order from that, you know, your

company again. Yeah. Anyway. Fun little touch. Um one of my daughter’s favorite brands, Altered State. They’ve started writing Yeah. Uh maybe they’ve done this forever. I just noticed it recently when they they do handwritten notes on the inside packing slip. And I was like I operationally gives me the shivers of thinking about the time added to process, but what an amazing experience. Mhm. That her package wasn’t just a hoodie that she’d been looking for, but there was a note written by the associate that packed it. Little No, it was handwritten. And just a few words, their name, “Taylor, we hope you love this. Like, “Wow, that is that’s delivery experience.” Some companies are starting to

understand how meaningful that is. In your role as CFO, COO at Shippeo, why is that so meaningful? I think it’s the transformation of seeing a package that’s just a unit that’s throughput and you’re managing the cost and the variable and and it just it’s something that happens into using delivery experience as a value add to a customer, to retention, and to a delightful experience, which all of those things manifest into better operating leverage for companies. So, if I put the finance hat on, it’s how are we getting better operating leverage? How are we ensuring that we’ve got high um you know, customer repeat package or repeat purchases or high renewals or upsells, all these pieces

that that help us grow the business. But, the operations hat is really focused on can we help a customer make their customers delivery entire experience better. Mhm. And if you think about e-commerce or or even B2B, how many uh pharmaceuticals or auto parts or other things are changing hands across billions and billions and billions of packages that are not just a box, they’re somebody’s expectation for that item. And it’s not always a life-saving item or a critical part to fix a plane or a car, it could just be a sweater. But, you the person that purchased made that intention to get that item. And if you are laser-focused on making their experience great, everyone wins.

Mhm. And so, what I’m excited for is seeing more and more brands see their supply chain as not just a cost optimization mechanism, but is really an additive customer experience that drives value to their business. I got that. Yeah, I I just think it’s an area of the marketplace where um maybe we’re not as thoughtful about it. And the the delivery experience, the customer experience drives lots of activity including being loyal to that particular brand. And so, I think that’s really I think that’s really insightful, really meaningful. Don’t forget the delivery experience. Don’t forget the delivery experience. And as you’re measuring it focus on also what are some of the positive things. It’s easy to

say, “I’m going to manage delivery experience to reduce contacts.” Because you can measure how many customers are calling to complain. Mhm. Is that going to actually drive an improvement in your overall delivery experience? Or are you getting too focused on, “Let’s optimize the contacts. Can we have a chatbot that reduces the number of people?” That’s not solving the problem of delivery experience. That’s band-aiding a bad delivery experience. Mhm. And that’s where whether it’s a 3PL fulfilling on behalf of a brand and we’re supporting them, has to be that chain of custody and ownership. Um and the tooling that’s coming out I’m really excited about the evolution of AI in supply chain. I know that some

people will say, “Ads.” You know, I see a lot of read a lot of contracts from prospects and customers and they’re like, “No way I need anything.” And then you talk about practical applications Mhm. and how this is going to empower analyst, supply chain leaders, not just to know information, but to make smarter decisions, improve their delivery experience. Mhm. This is this is a really fun time to be in tech. And um building all those things around that customer experiences what makes it even more fun. Great call. Absolutely. I can’t I can’t tell you how much we appreciate all of your insight and thoughtfulness and so many lessons, so many analogies that we got out

of this. I had high expectations and you may have exceeded them. You’re too kind. Um I really appreciate you and the team. Um working with the EHub is fantastic and the focus that you all have for our mutual customers. Um I know the respect that they have for you um and that just shows in your personality, how our conversation goes. Um and thank you as well. Thank you. Well, we’re looking forward to the partnership. It’s going to be great. Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Know Your Ship podcast presented by EHub. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review.