“My MBA in a Box”: How Chapter 11 Built a Billion-Dollar Brand

I actually think we can build a Disney. We can build a Nike. We can build a brand that will be here in a hundred years. And I know that sounds so now I’m back to being, you know, brash cocky me, but I’m I’m actually totally sincere. I I I think we’re going to do exactly that. Welcome to the Know Your Ship podcast presented by EHUB. I’m your host, Frank Dolce. Well, here he is, the one and only Shaun D. Nelson, the love sack guy. Is that what you typically call yourself? Uh, I just love sack guy. Is my, you know, it’s more famous than I am, so it’s easy. What does the D stand for?

David. Oh, yeah. King like King David. Yeah, like my like my dad. David. Oh, very nice. You know, as I’ve done some research, uh, well, I I guess we’ll just jump right in. You mentioned your dad and how your parents were influential have been influential in your life and I I think there’s an interesting uh relationship with your with your dad. How did that relationship help you become the person you are today? Yeah. Look, I think uh if I’m being honest, we learn as much from our parents about how we don’t want to be as we do how we want to be. Right. I’m taking notes constantly on that exact thing. Yeah, absolutely. And um

and I have a lot to, you know, owed to my parents. They really just supported me. They paid for every kind of lesson and opportunity along the way. Even though, you know, a lot of times growing up, we were um you know, they were hardressed to keep up with with those types of things, but they found a way. So I I grew up singing and dancing and playing the piano and skiing and water sports and like soccer and all the things and I I was a very busy kid and um you know my parents supported all of that. And then when it came finally to Love Sack which was a weird adventure um that I

kind of reluctantly just kind of kept up with, right? Because I had made this big bean bag. People loved it. Everywhere I took it, they wanted more. It became a company because a side hustle in college. Um it became a you know obviously a store starting in 2001 and building product companies is really taxing. You know I think even more so than many other types of companies. It requires a ton of capital. These are things I didn’t know when I started. You know I discovered them the hard way. And uh in the early days we you know we started as a factory really. we were making these things and so even that took a lot

of capital equipment and I, you know, needed to borrow money. They would lend me money. Um, and it was always a loan. It always was paid back with interest. You know, it was never a gift. And, and even that I’m grateful for. I’m both grateful that they were willing to lend me money. I’m also grateful that it wasn’t a gift. like I think I learned a lot um about a lot of things uh through their support and gratefully was able to survive and get to this point on on the on that foundation. So, uh my my dad taught me how to work. Um I grew up besides all that, I was also changing out water

heaters and tearing up carpet and basically doing what needed to be done at these rental properties that they owned. M and these were, you know, these were divy rental properties. These were not uh glamorous places to to work, but um taught me a lot. You know, I got to see how a lot of people lived. I got to get dirty and and deal with um you [clears throat] know, just all of those challenges and um learn how to work at a young age. And I’m really grateful for that. You you said that you were grateful that you received a loan and not a gift. Why was that important to you? I mean, it’s something I

reflect on a lot now as I’m raising my own. I have four kids. Uh [clears throat] my oldest is a senior in high school and every two years we’ve had a kid. So, I’ve got them all in junior high in high school now. And um you know, I think that my work ethic and and my tenacity and I mean, look, we’re 27 years into Love Sack and it hasn’t been easy and we’ve had a lot of great years. We’ve had a lot of challenging years. Um everything in between. I mean, we’ve lived through the most challenging kind of kinds of times as a business. Had to completely start over. Uh, and here we are again

continuing, you know, with the challenges of a public company. It just takes a ton of grit and tenacity as anyone knows. And um I just think that one of the things I reflect on a lot now is I don’t want to accidentally rob my kids of what it took for me to develop that. And I don’t think I mean you can obviously get some of that by playing football and having a really great experience and great coaches and things like that. I I believe in that. But the pressures of real life, not not just a game, not just competition, but you know, financial pressure, uh social pressures, um embarrassment, humility, uh you know, all the

things that happen to you. Mhm. in the school of hard knocks like I don’t want to accidentally rob my children of that because I think and so you know I think that money and the way we handle it with our kids especially matters a lot and and I think my parents I don’t know that they did it right but I want to learn from my experiences and try to replicate some of those. It’s challenging because you’re in a position today where you can you can provide for your for your kids. you can provide for all of their needs and and sure if you wanted to and they probably wouldn’t really have to try that hard

if you provided all those needs but needs but but I think this is a recurring theme in your story is this concept of diamonds are formed under pressure and and you lean into that pressure and some some people will will run away run away from it. Why is that important to the to you? Why is being under pressure and surviving and th thriving under pressure? Why is that meaningful? I think you said it. I think uh the only way we develop and and really grow and change in in meaningful lasting and uh you know I guess um deep ways is is under pressure of of some kind of of every kind and of course people’s

capacity for pressure people’s capacity for the unknown you know I talk a lot about um embracing uncertainty it’s one of my shaunisms Mhm. Um I think uncertainty is this thing that is not often talked about cuz it’s hard to put your finger on, but it’s a common thread amongst entrepreneurs, especially founders. And look, it’s not all about being a founder or an entrepreneur, but that that is in today’s age, I think, one of the kind of celebrated, I don’t know, uh gladiators of our time, right? these these people that go out and take risk and then create value and and wealth and whatever. Um but it’s just one form and I think I’ve found because

on my own podcast, you know, let me save you 25 years. Uh all most I I talk almost exclusively to entrepreneurs and when I say that I say that really broadly. I mean I view Hollywood actors and they’re entrepreneurs managing their own you know career uh for better or worse. obviously founders of companies u musicians even you know um I love to talk to people who have to deal with with uh you know the vicissitudes of life and that’s where characters formed that’s where uh all the things that it takes to be you know let’s say remarkably successful are formed and I really want that for my kids in as much as they have the

capacity for it and and I don’t mean founding companies I just mean you know exposing them to as much of those challenges as as I can in in a in hopefully a safe way in a way that’s commensurate to their own talents and abilities. And that’s hard to do. You know, it’s hard to know exactly who they are and what they’re capable of. But it’s in the doing that we find out. By the way, it’s a great podcast that you have. Tell tell us this the title again. Yeah. Let me save you 25 years is the name of my book uh and my podcast. Yeah. And the and the subtitle of your book is mistakes,

miracles, and lessons from the love sack story. And I’m really proud of that. I mean, in the sense I’ve tried, look, I tried to write a book that I wish I had read when I was 18 and I was getting started. I tried to write this, you know, it’s the kind of book that I love to see people giving to their, you know, 18, 22, 32 year old kid who’s trying to, you know, show ambition. Um, and because I try to be really vulnerable and just talk about the mistakes I made and then of course the lessons that I learned and some of the miracles that happened, you know, because you have to get lucky.

Of course, you know, in one of the shaisms in the book and and on the podcast, we talk about this uh create we create our own luck and um we talk about how to do that because I believe in that and I didn’t always believe in that. I talk about how I came to believe in luck. Um but these are the things that I like to discuss with people. You know what’s interesting as I’m sitting here talking to you, we we talked about this just briefly, but I met you when you started the company. That’s cool. and I knew some of your some of your key people who helped in the beginning were who were

helpful in the beginning and some of the greatest people that I to today I still know. Thank you. Um, and I would just say that the kid that I met 27 years ago was had this sparkle and walked around like I mean don’t no offense but walked around like kind of I own the world. I I’m on the path. I know what I’m doing. full of confidence and um yeah, full of confidence, maybe cockiness. I mean, like kind of this attitude of I’m going to I’m going to go do this and then you you you end up winning the the contest and a million bucks and things look like they’re running and and you just

had this kind of very energetic spirit. I’m not saying that has Well, I am saying it’s it feels like it’s evolved. Sure. Sitting here talking to you today. I mean, it feels like you have some battle scars. Sure. And the the the sparkle is still in your eye, but it’s more of this wisdom of 27 years of going through this battle. Yeah. I mean, I hope I have something to show for that. You know, I I if someone were to tell me like, “Oh man, you haven’t changed.” I think I would be more offended by that, you know. Yeah. Your hairstyles changed. Yeah. Thankfully, it was bad. Look, uh I mean, it’s even at the

for Love Sack, right? We uh we started as a beanag company, not even a stuffed foam sack company, not a bean bag. Um, and we didn’t have a lot of direction, but we knew that people liked it. They like, we like the brand, but it’s evolved into this place where we make things that are built to last a lifetime and designed to evolve. And that’s really been the unlock for us, right? When we recognized what’s so special about what we do, it actually can evolve with you. Like, like a lot of the people that bought Sachs back when you first met me and my team, they still have them. They tell me all the time.

I I DM with them on social media. They make comments on posts that nothing makes me prouder in a world where almost everything now is disposable. Everything. And uh but we didn’t always have that vision, right? We it was kind of there cuz we made good stuff, but it evolved into that vision over a very long time. I could unpack that if you like. Yeah. But I think people are the same way. Like what are we here for if not to evolve? Mhm. So while and that’s the trick like you know speaking of like entrepreneurship um we’re expected to be hard charging brash bold change makers. Oh but we’re also expected to be humble enough

to learn and to take advice and to hire people better than us. So which is it? Because it’s hard to be both those things. And the answer is yes. It’s both of those things and all the things. And that’s why you know I to this moment in my life I still struggle with all kinds of things. In fact I wonder is there is there remotely a whole human being on earth you know only because I know myself and people you know sometimes look up to me or they look up to people like me you know CEOs of companies CEOs of public companies. Oh man they’ve got they they’ve got so much going on and it’s

true right I’ve got a lot going on and I’m capable of a lot. Uh but at the same time, man, like I am screwing up somewhere in my life every day, whether it’s with my kids or my wife or my work or uh just an interaction with a stranger, you know, and uh and this is after all these decades of reading books and trying to be better and having conversations with some of the most successful people on earth, you know, on my own podcast. I mean, and if I’m is this flawed, then who is whole? Um, so but to me this is the this is why we’re here and frankly you know we I don’t

want to sherk from the challenge. I think it’s it’s again these the challenge of it all that allows us to um become more and uh I’m all about that and and and so much so that I’ve even I think applied that right to the products that we make. these things can become more than when you bought them. And that’s really weird in the world of products. And and it’s something I’m super proud of. Like I don’t think anyone expected Love Sack to evolve to a place that um has some real depth to it, but it has absolutely done that. And it’s why I believe, by the way, that even on the foundation of that brash,

cocky emptiness that you met a long time ago with with that thought he had some kind of strategic path or vision didn’t. I mean, but I was at least, I guess, cocky enough to survive. I was bold enough and brave enough and whatever it was, right, to survive on that foundation. Now, we found this place where I actually think we can build a Disney, we can build a Nike, we can build a brand that will be here in a 100 years. And I know that sounds so now I’m back to being, you know, brash cocky me, but I’m I’m actually totally sincere. I I I think we’re going to do exactly that. And I think

um we’re on our path to that. I can see it. I can see exactly how we’re going to get there. And at the same time, I also know all the shortcomings that we have inside the company and everything else. And and so these two worlds exist together. Um and both, you know, as a company and as a person, we have to just keep evolving. That’s the game. There’s there’s so much to talk about in that in the statement that you just made. And so I’m I’m gonna try and get to all of it. Sure. Hopefully it it has some interesting flow. But there’s two things specifically. One, you talked about the product and you talked

about um the message re regarding the product which I think you’ve like you said has evolved over the 27 years. I don’t think you could have said that 27 years ago if I said what does this company stand for? I don’t think you would have said that. Not not even 17 years ago, you know. Absolutely. We we we obviously had uh just a strategic guide. We had uh mission statement. We had, you know, but [clears throat] and it was fine for the time, but it’s evolved to a place now that I feel really certain about it and I think it has the depth that it’s worthy of, right? And so these things have to just

evolve. So would you consider yourself a strategic thinker, a strategic planner? Uh yeah. Yes. I I think I’ve evolved again into that. I don’t know that I always was. Um I don’t know. It’s hard to look back and really judge yourself. But today there are I find it’s kind of neat actually like that I can go into even you know I’ve taken meet like my life right I just work where I am and so I’m out in the parking lot taking a meeting in the car and then I land here I take a meeting in your house and I can go from meeting to meeting and recognize where you know everyone’s being too tactical and

and here’s where we got to get back to first principles or here’s and and I find that in my seat now as the CEO of a company that’s not small but also not huge. I don’t know. It depends who we’re comparing to, right? But we’re going towards a billion in sales and you know, we’re publicly traded on NASDAQ and in my and in as the CEO of that company in this capacity. Um really the only two things that I think matter are hiring, you know, and and retention like basically people and strategy. That’s my job. And while I mess with all kinds of other components because I find them interesting, especially product development and design

and things like that and whatever, you know, powerpoints or something, as long as I am getting the people right and the strategy right, the rest will happen. And so I try to be very disciplined and even back up and ask myself that like where am I? And I and I spend a lot of time just thinking. I know that sounds weird, but um I try to find time where uh I can literally uh kind of lay there or stand there, whatever it I have my different methods and just think and imagine and create in my mind. Um and and that’s my that’s my job. You know, running a business obviously can be a very complex

venture. Thousand things. There’s there’s a thousand things. It’s a million things. there’s everything happening at once. And and for for someone in your position specifically, you’re being pulled in in 100 different directions all the time. And you you just said something that is I think is so meaningful. If you can simplify it, that complexity to the people that you hire and the strategy that you build, then everything else will kind of fall into place. So my question about that is because you mentioned like you built this, you built a bean bag, people liked it, you started building more and all of a sudden you you have a company like you’re you’re running that was your

strategy. Yeah. Like no strategy in the beginning that was your strategy. So I’m really curious about along that path. How did you develop this? How did you develop this thought of simplifying that complexity of building a b business into look it’s about two things these two things are really really meaningful I have been asked [clears throat] some version of the question you know what’s the secret to success in in all kinds of forms kind of in a way what you just asked me a thousand times since I was 18 years old and got started in this thing um because we got a lot of attention very early because we were a bunch of kids running

and a company at on the lawn at the U of U and that was that was more rare in those days. It was weird. We were bootstrapping before the word bootstrapping I think existed, right? You may have created it. Yeah, we didn’t know. We were just doing the next thing. That said, um my answer to your question, you know, how did that come about is really rooted in my answer to that question fundamentally, which is self-awareness. The answer to what’s the secret to success generally is self-awareness. And and whether we’re talking about literally ourselves as human beings or whether we’re talking about let’s say our brand and understanding what it is and what it means

and where it’s going, what it needs to become, self-awareness is the is the root of all of it. On that foundation, if we’re really understanding ourselves and we’re really understanding our our company, what it is, what it can become, we can then build the strategy. We can then of course get tactical. we can then worry about, you know, the colors in the PowerPoint because all it is is a thousand things. It’s 10,000 things. It’s a million things. And they, by the way, they all matter. Mhm. But they don’t all matter at the same level. And so when I break it down to those two things, I’m just talking at the highest level. And again, you

get it right at the top. The rest takes care of itself. It’s a shaunism from the book. Um, and when I say the top, it’s not just hierarchy and people. That’s an obvious example, but it’s also, okay, let’s let’s pick the brand. You know, what what’s your purpose? So, start there. Start at the very pinnacle of that pyramid. And then we get all the way down to the colors and the PowerPoint. And and it still matters. It just doesn’t matter as much. And the problem is is that sometimes as humans, we can get so lost in all of the tactics and all the details. You know, the Steve Jobs, even the inside of the computer

matters, and it’s true. Mhm. But it doesn’t matter as much as what’s at the top of whatever pyramid we’re talking about. Get it right at the top. The rest will take care of itself. And so whenever I look at anything, I’m always trying to just kind of force myself back to make sure that I’m thinking about it from the from the top down. And and if I if I’m going to muck around in the details, which is fine, and there I I get involved in plenty of things, you know, that are random or or uh I don’t know, tactical. Mhm. But I try very hard not to stay there. I try very hard uh not

to be needed there. I try very hard to make sure that um I’m conscious of what I’m doing. Back to self-awareness. Like I’m mucking in the details, okay? But I’m not mistaking that as my job. It’s something I’m doing for whatever reason. Maybe I find it interesting. Maybe I just need to get something done. Maybe, you know, um I have a unique uh perspective to add in that. Mhm. You know, tiny thing or big or big thing, whatever. But um but I I I’m aware of it as I’m doing it. I’m not mistaking that. I’m not mistaking being busy uh for being successful, right? And that’s a that’s a trap I think a lot of

people fall into. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I I think along those lines, I mean uh sometimes you can get engaged in uh being busy like and feeling like that’s productivity. And it’s not those aren’t necessarily the same things. Being busy and being productive can be can be two different things. for sure. So, how do you with all of these things that are that happening and all of the advice that you get from everybody uh and you’ve clearly you’ve developed this clear path for the company, how do you decipher what’s meaningful and what is just noise? I mean, first of all, that’s why they pay you the big bucks. And what I mean by that

is um the more I guess elevated your title is, the the bigger your your organization is, you know, the bigger the task at hand, you know, the the more complex things get. And so the there isn’t a always a clear answer for, you know, when when do you do this and when do you do that? Some of it’s gut instinct, some of it’s, you know, learned through experience, some of it’s learned through books and mentors and things like that. Um, but fundamentally, back to first principles, the capacity to exercise judgment and not be paralyzed by choice. um to make decisions even in uh uncertainty and to ma literally make decisions and move forward. That capacity

is the fundamental capacity I think that allows someone to uh continue to move up you know let’s call it the success ladder whether whether that means in title and responsibility or whether it means in you know financial outcome or or or the quality of the relationships around us right um however you want to define success in that realm you have to have good judgment uh if you want to continue to to to to move upwards, let’s call it. And uh that’s hard to put your finger on, you know, and and by the way, not everyone has it. And that’s by the way I mean or or let’s say this everyone has some form of judgment

but sure one’s capacity to exercise good judgment in a myriad in you know across myriad um I don’t uh challenges really will define how high they can go let’s call it yeah well I think there is there’s distinct talents and abilities that people have like there’s things that I could do that that you may not do so well. And there’s certainly things that you do that I’m always thinking like, man, I wish I could do that. I wish I could do that. And so going back to your self-awareness and understanding where your gifts and talents are and how you can learn and, you know, be be an adviser in certain at certain times and be

the student at certain times and learn in all of those different ways. you you’ve you’ve been through this uh you know all of this experience lots of success I I would say near failure you’ve been through relationships with venture capital and private equity and you have this one really interesting experience where you had to take the company into chapter 11 and you call that maybe you call it the most embarrassing time of your life or just a very embarrassing time. Sure. In your experience and I’m curious about that. Why do you describe it as a a most embarrassing time in your experience? Well, it was it was amplified for me because and you know, you’re

we’re sitting here in Salt Lake City where we got started. You’re familiar with the brand in those early days. We were high-flying. Mh. We were well covered, you know, because we were out there doing this so boldly and brashly and rapidly. And then I get recruited to a reality TV show where I on national network on na on Fox TV prime time with Richard Branson, you know, billionaire of our age at that time. And I win a million dollars on national TV. So I’m a local celebrity for sure. I’m a almost a national celebrity for a minute and you know not long after you know bankruptcies on the front page and so it’s humiliating you

know amplified by that kind of fame uh and that was you know look it I I’m not abdicating it’s it’s my own fault I didn’t do a better job uh guiding the company making decisions whatever but we had raised money from venture capital one of their first moves was hey you’ve signed up for all these leases as a 24 year old that are a lot of them are pretty bad. Let’s get out of half of those. Let’s close them down. Let’s get out of franchising. Let’s pair it all pull it all back in. And and the way to execute that was through a chapter 11 bankruptcy, which there were probably other ways, but that’s where

we ended up. And uh it’s not really it was never in my plans obviously. at the same time, you know, the other thing. So yeah, it was the most humiliating time in my life and it’s and it’s made it’s further amplified because here I am, you know, having to get rid of half the staff and then run around the country closing down stores I had just opened, you know, sawing in half a cash wrap fixture in a shopping mall at midnight in Texas because you can only work at nights when the mall’s closed and I got no one else to do it and I got to throw it in the dumpster and we just purchased

the thing, you Oh, and so it’s also physically demanding and demoralizing. And then, by the way, come back to work on Monday and keep everybody jazzed up, amped up to sell some bean bags this weekend cuz you also are still going trying to survive. So, you know, these bankruptcy processes, if you if you intend to come out of them, are grueling. They will take everything you have physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all of it. At the same time, I, you know, besides calling it the most humiliating time of my life, it was also my MBA in a box. Like, you want to see how contracts really work. Put them through the fulcrum of a of a

chapter 11. And you’ll see every one of them play out. You’ll see every clause extracted. you’ll see every fight down to the last dollar, you know, between debtors and creditors and everything else. And so, like, I feel like I know more about some of that than business people twice my age. Mhm. Because of that experience, right? And so, I think there’s a lot to be gained. And I’m not advocating it. I’m just saying that we have to whatever life throws at us, we just have to look at it like it’s going to be for our benefit and learning. And if we can’t do that, uh, then it’s just pain. And so to find a way

to view it that way and to then gain from it, like I’ve gained a ton. And I feel like that knowledge now informs a a lot of the decisions I make, how we negotiate contracts to this day, is informed by some of the, you know, painful lessons that I learned and and then more. Like there’s not enough time on the podcast, you know, because it’s a thousand things. Mhm. But that’s the blessing of even being in the position to live through all of this is I get to develop in a thousand ways if I choose or I can just be a cocky, you know, kid who can’t take advice. And so there’s a place for

boldness and brashness still to this day. And uh on on the right stage in the right format, people expect that from me. Mhm. Uh but um of course there’s a place for an underlying humility that is always willing to learn from everything and everyone. And that’s the part that look as a 20some I probably didn’t have fully developed or developed at all. Um but but thankfully through all of this I’ve developed some capacity for that. I’m I’m I’m certain. And uh but [clears throat] I’m still on that path. Well, you have this great survival instinct and you talk about resilience that’s meaningful and and how your mom was uh helpful in that process in your

life. And so those are those are other topics that I want to talk about. But as we’re talking still talking about kind of the beginnings and what’s happening with with Love Sack, I I’m curious if maybe what you would have thought way back when, what you think about it now, is it more important to pause and be super thoughtful or to take a step even though you might be risking a big mistake? Again, that’s the answer is yes. That’s why they pay you the big bucks. And you have to develop. Look, the older I get and the more experience I’ve had, the more I rely on my gut instinct, not less. You know, it’s not

like, oh, well, now I’m wiser and I’ve read a thousand books and like, you know, I know the answers. I increasingly and and so I increasingly lean on my instincts and even though my knowledge has increased obviously through all my experiences so developing the capacity to tap into your instincts because every human’s born with them and I don’t know look we could get religious about it we could get spiritual about it we could get physiological about it you know literally our that that phrase you know our gut instinct comes from the fact that We actually have neurons connected from our brain stem down to our actual gut and our heart. And these things are real

physiological uh phenomenon. But how it works, why it works, you know, people’s capacity for it, I can’t fully speak to. But I I believe in that. I I I believe our capacity to un to I don’t know to uh harness that to uh hear it feel it re you know allow it to guide us is an X factor it’s it’s a it’s a major um talent skill ability that even though I can’t fully understand it is useful and um is the answer to your question. How to do you know when to act or when to take a pause and think really critically and strategically about something. That’s a an instin you know there are moments

for A and there are moments for B and um I don’t have better advice for you than that. What so what is your like what’s the process when you are faced with a situation like that some complex issue some challenge or or or just are we going down a or b what is your process who do you lean on somebody do you get away by yourself is do you have a mentor what what’s the process I mean there are many different processes so one is I I really like to try things on. It’s what I call it. Just like you try on clothes or something. And even trying on clothes, to abuse the metaphor, like

I don’t I don’t debate myself anymore. You know, I keep I keep my wardrobe simple. But if I’m trying on a new jacket, because I got a I got a lot of jackets. It’s like my only the only thing that changes in my wardrobe. Otherwise, I’m in a black t-shirt. But if I try it on, I either instantly love it or I don’t. And if and if it’s on sale and half off and it’s from a great brand, but I didn’t have that like, oh, I love that. I hang it back up. I don’t talk myself into it because it’s a good deal, really good deal. No way. I don’t talk myself into it cuz

you know the they’re out of but they have an extra large. No way. It’s just a hard no. And and so how does that apply? Um I like to try things on verbally, you know? So if we’re debating a new name, let’s say a new brand, I just start using it. I, you know, I use it in my conver I I even though we haven’t applied for the trademark or we haven’t even decided that that’s the answer and it starts to get weird in conversations because it there’s no way to pluralize it or or I find that people revert to the old one. They don’t like saying it. Okay, it’s out. I try things on

try things on verbally especially uh try things on in my own mind. I just, you know, just start using these the idea at hand. It costs nothing to do that. and I encourage those around me to try them on with me. So, um that’s a that’s a major tactic of mine. Uh you know, as far as um how to recognize those, you know, th those moments and decipher them besides gut instinct, trying things on. Um another form of that I I just talk them out, you know, I and [snorts] I know that sounds obvious, but uh you have to have people around you especially if they understand you. Like the I think I try to

even warn the people ahead of time like hey don’t you know because the problem with being a CEO is you say things and then people think that you’re you know giving an edict and so I try to be very again self-aware hey I’ll warn people right like this is not an edict I actually and I encourage people to debate me and that’s hard again you know it’s the classic CEO trap um Jim Collins talks a lot about it you know he calls it the CEO disease you know people People don’t like uh arguing. People People are can be afraid to um have conflict with their boss or a person in power or something. People um

hide information because they’re afraid that it will reflect badly on them if it’s bad news and whatnot. So, you have to really like dig for it. You have to believe that there’s more information there not sharing with you. And you have to ask for it and pry it out of them. And then when you do start talking, whether it’s with them or at them, making it clear what you’re doing. Hey, I’m just I’m I’m just throwing ideas out. Uh, debate me. No, really, like, um, you know, you have to really encourage debate and get people to go toe-to-toe with you and and let them know it’s okay, you know, and and, uh, because the best

answers are not usually my answers, even though I’ve got some great answers. The best answers have usually had the corners knocked off of them by other people’s challenges and debates and provocations. But again, you have to go into it with the self-awareness knowing like how are they viewing me cuz you think of yourself as just another person in the room. But that’s not the case necessarily, especially if you’re in any position of authority. It doesn’t have to be the CEO. And so, back to self-awareness. That’s the root. That’s the root of all success. Have you ever been in a situation where I mean people say that a lot. Yeah. People say and I’ve had bosses

who have said that regularly. You know challen you have to challenge me. You have to you have to debate me. You have to poke holes in this argument and then when you find yourself in that situation and engaged in that there’s a negative reaction. Yeah. I mean, look, we that’s why I say here I am, I don’t know, pushing 50 and and I still feel so deficient because now you’re you’re talking about an intrapersonal interaction on some random day of the week around some random topic and all of us have those and our ability to show up well and to manage our uh reaction even as by the way we might have something on our

mind at home or right? Something that’s brought us down or be chemically imbalanced or off, you know, off of our caffeine or whatever it may be. And that’s minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day. And that’s what makes the job so hard. And the job is being a human and trying to eek out success. So, I wish I had better again better um [clears throat] advice for you, but um we just have to keep making the effort. We have to, you know, again, start with self-awareness. really try and look at our behavior, really try and be objective about it, really ask for feedback and then just but don’t be paralyzed. And so I

believe in making decisions fast. Actually, I believe in taking action fast. I believe in I believe in constant movement. By the way, on on the topic of giving advice or not giving advice, what you’re doing right now is exact like this is so good. It’s what you know I think people are interested in your process in your thought process and what has has brought you from where you started to where you are today and to where you’re where you’re going and your vision for the company is amazing like you can see that path you believe that’s going to occur. One of the things that you’ve said, I hope I don’t goof this up. You correct

me if I’m wrong, but you said something like you’re building the most honest brand around something like that. I’d like to. Yeah. Yeah. So, what were So, well, let me start. We have this strategic guide that I’m super proud of and not just the content, but also the format, right? And I’ve I’ve cobbled it together from a lot of different sources because I’ve never found one that was complete in my opinion as an operator. You know, that’s kind of the cool thing about doing what I’m doing is I’m interested in format. I’m interested in strategy. I’m interested in purpose and mission and values and uh you know all of the all the layers of the

cake that get down to even just the tactics and our annual planning and the financials and and the way to boil that down to its most important parts and also rank stack them in order of importance. Okay, so this what I call strategic guide is really just one page. It’s really just one uh pyramid kind of diagram and at the top of it it’s our purpose and our purpose at Love Sack is to inspire humankind to buy better stuff so they can buy less stuff which is a pretty weird thing for a company that makes stuff to say because pretty much every other company out there has somehow been I don’t know convinced to join

the bandwagon of just actually trying to just get you to buy more crap stuff you didn’t even need. Mhm. Um, and look, a lot of economic success has been squeezed out of that modus operandi, but I think it’s gross. Yet I look, I still told you. So, the next level of the pyramid, our mission is to build the most loved brand. And the most love the most loved brand in America and maybe the world someday. And the most loved brand is probably super valuable. Mhm. like as an entity on the earth. Absolutely. And it’s probably pretty big. Sure. Because you’re not going to be the most loved brand if you’re not on the lips of

lots of people touching lots of people. Okay. So implicit in that is billions in sales and lots of product out the door. And it’s at odds with the purpose that stands above it. Inspire humankind to buy better so they can buy less. Now let’s let’s let’s pick on Apple because everyone I mean it’s the biggest company in the world a lot of times and you know it’s Apple. Mhm. Is it? Well, is Apple the most beloved company in the world? Of course not. I think it’s a loved brand for sure by many, but even the people that I love Apple and I hate Apple. I feel very much the same. It’s so gross. We all

know like they could choose to design it in a way that we could change out the battery, let’s say, and just have a fresh battery and not need a new phone every year or so. And we all know why they don’t do that. Mhm. And here we are still celebrating and venerating them. How gross is that? And here’s the outcome, though. Here we are, you know, decades past that. And what have they done? They have hundreds of billions in cash. If you gave I feel like if you gave me hundreds of billions in in capital, I think I could Who knows? Like, why haven’t they cured cancer, man? Why haven’t they solved traffic? I don’t

know. How about not just a better mimoji again? How about not just AI emoji? And look, they’ve done the watch. I’m just saying that if they had been forced by the power of the consumer and so I’ve put now now juxtapose that with what I just broke down for you. Mhm. I’m putting Love Sack then in a very difficult position because in order for me to build the world’s most loved brand and you know get to the scale that’s implicit in that while driving a movement for people to buy better so they can buy less. I could never possibly sell enough couches to get there because by the way my couches last for decades. I

have couches older than my kids pieces of my couch and it’s mixed with brand new pieces. And isn’t it cool that fundamentally what am I doing on first principles? I’m trying to actually get you into our world selling sameness, not newness. Because the the the benefit of sctionals, right, is that you can add to it six years from now. You can come back. We never drop our fabrics. It affects our operations. You know what I mean? Like it’s not just a product thing. It’s a whole operational thing. I can’t drop my fabrics because isn’t it satisfying that when you come back in six years, you never even thought of it when you bought it. You

bought it because it fit down your stairs. But now you’re back and you’re like, you know, I should buy a whole new set of covers, but I really just need this one piece because my dog chewed it up. And we’re like, no problem, man. We got you. One cover of one arm. Your couch feels brand new again. That’s kind of cool. That makes you like us maybe even more than Apple. Yeah, but but how am I going to sell enough couches to build the world’s most loved brand or or enough covers? Like the answer is I must take it further. And if I have enough time, I will make all the things. I will make

all the things that kind of suck because the way the world has devolved into printers that, you know, do all the things that printers do and don’t do. Mhm. And I’m not just talking about the printer. I’m talking about the, you know, the the wall of ink at a Staples that you, you know, it’s the 25601 cartridge, but I don’t know cuz I it’s the extended amount. I don’t know if it’ll work with my 25602-f. It’s unclear. And the whole the whole system just sucks, dude. And what it leaves for me is all these cool problems to go solve. I I I I don’t have enough life left on Earth, and I certainly don’t have

enough capital at the moment. But we’re going one at a time. And that’s my point is that when you have tension between your stated purpose and your mission, it allows for a different outcome. Look, you don’t have to agree with my path. It would be a lot faster path to just raw financial success if I found a way to make my couches more like those printers in all the ways that the printer companies take your money. And you know what I’m talking about. And I’m not going to do it. And you can say, Sean, that’s a stupid strategy, but I’ll say to you, talk to me in 20 years. We’ll see. We’ll see who has

the more powerful brand. And so you and look, I didn’t even have any of this content. I didn’t have this state of purpose. I had I had to allow the brand time to evolve and I had to allow my even my own thinking time to evolve to allow this to kind of emerge. I couldn’t have started out with it. If I did start out with it, I wouldn’t have known what to do with it. And so sometimes you you have to just go with what you’re dealt. I made a big bean bag. People liked it. And then people kept asking about the couch in the corner of the store. And so well, let’s let’s make

couches. And then we made one that happened to have all these weird qualities that allowed it was we didn’t make it so it lasts a long time. We actually made it so we could ship it cuz we could ship the sacks by shrinking them down. Like we did that for couches. But along with it came removable covers, washable covers, changeable pieces, standard standardized pieces. Now you have something that can go 20, 30, 40 years out of a couch. No one’s ever done that. And and from that chicken now, we’ve derived the egg that’s called designed for life, right? We make things that are built to last a lifetime, designed to evolve. And on that platform,

I think I can build a brand that can go around solving all these different problems in different realms, not just furniture. And it’s a brand you’ll love and trust more than other brands because it just it’s just totally different and the outcome is different and the design is different. And and I’m here giving you my playbook because I know nobody’s going to go do it because it’s so much easier to go do it the other way. It’s so much easier to basically make disposable stuff whether you whether you whether you tout it as good quality or not, but fundamentally it’s disposable. And that’s a that’s a model that works, but I’m just I’ve adopted a

different model. Yeah. How many iterations have you been through a charging connector with Apple? Like Yeah. How many times has that changed? And how now how many times have I had to change all of my cords? Yeah. And it’s frustrating. It’s frustrating. It’s maddening. It’s technology and technology moves in. for that for sure. But my point is, back to being a practitioner, all this stuff I’m throwing at you. Um, you’ll get to see, we’ll all get to see whether whether it works or not, whether I’m right or not. And that’s what’s cool about not, you know, that’s my back to frameworks. You the the question was led by, you know, how do you strategize and

prioritize all this? It’s having a framework that has all the right parts to it. And I just gave you the top two layers, but there’s more. There’s more all the way down to taxes, all the way down to our annual financial plan. And the further down you move on that framework, the more it changes, the more changeable it is. The higher up you go, the more rigid the more rigid you have to be with it. You have to protect it. And it’s not to say it can’t change. It’s it’s evolved, but you have to really So, back to do you move faster on the lower levels you move fast. We’re changing our financial plan, of

course, month to month, week to week, based on conditions, but at the top, we’re not we’re not flopping around, but you know, I don’t know about this purpose anymore. It’s like if you ever go there, you put six months into it. you think long and deep and and the strategic framework was cobbled together from you know Jim Collins uh Simon Syninek uh you know AG Laughafley like all the best books Patrick Lencion a bit here and a bit there you know culture and and and values from here and uh you know um where we play how we win from there and um I’m just very maniacal about the strategic guide. So back to what I

told you at the top now simplify it people and strategy. So I live in that strategic guide. I own it. That’s my document. Do you know what I mean? And others contribute and and we debate. But it’s like if a change is made at that level, I am acutely aware of every word, every dash, every space, every hyphen because it all has meaning. And that’s at this point. And by the way, I didn’t always get that. I used to sell in the stores all day. Mhm. That was my job. And before that, I stuffed sacks all day and delivered them on the weekends. That was my job. But that’s what I had to do to

get to here. Yeah. I’m really interested on how you got to the here. Like the the way you describe the beginning and someone says, “Hey, what about that couch in the corner?” And then you’re think, “Well, maybe we should be maybe we should be building couches and we’re going to do that and we’re going to do it this way.” Was there was there an aha moment in there somewhere where you said, “Wait, without maybe being strategic about it, but was there a moment when you said, “Wait a second. We are this. We’re going to be built for life. That’s our foundation. That’s our cornerstone.” Yeah. Uh not so much a moment, but a time period.

Uh but it’s you know that time period if I were to put a label on it was let’s think 17 years into the business. Yeah. Well that’s the fascinating part like how did you last 17 years I’ll tell you grit go ahead tell well you just go from one to the next. So, I did it by being as focused as I needed to be on stuffing sacks and delivering them. And then as focused as I need to be on working the store all day when I was tired, as focused as I needed to be on replacing myself in those stores, as focused as I need and I know that sounds so dumb, but it’s the

first two shaisms in the book, right? Do something like Leack wouldn’t exist if I had this dumb idea, right? I’m sitting on my parents couch watching the prices, right? I’m 10 days out of high school wearing basketball shorts. We’ve all been there. And I had this dumb idea like how funny would it be to make a bean bag like this big like me to the TV? I don’t know. It just popped in my head. But the difference was I turned off the TV. I got in my Ford Mustang, drove down to Joann’s Fabrics on 33rd South and bought some fabric. Brought it home, cut it out, sewed it up, jammed my mom’s sewing machine. I

I would never have known that people would like this thing had I not done that. it would have just been a dumb idea that I probably would have talked about. So the first shaism in the book is do something. And by the way, it persists. It doesn’t mean do something once. It means every day, every minute. What can I do now? You know, I will leave this podcast and as I’m walking out of this building, I will pull up the same stupid list I’ve been, I don’t know, massaging for 20 years of my life. It’s on, you know, Apple Notes. and and and looking at the first thing on that list and trying to do

it. And if I can’t do that one, I’m looking at the next thing on the list and it’s maybe it’s a phone call and I’ll pick up my phone as I’m walking to the ground. I’ll make a call. I am constantly doing one. Number two, do the next thing. So, how did I get here? I just kept doing the next thing. and before you know it, you have some expertise in everything from like I don’t know insurance to retail leasing to uh you know hiring, firing, recruiting to culture building and everything in between as you’re trying to you know just keep the lights on. So so but if you look I could have done it

sooner. didn’t need to take 17 years for me to identify that purpose. And but I wasn’t conscious enough, I guess, or smart enough or who knows what to connect the dots. We had different stated missions and purposes along the way. So, we were trying. Mhm. But my point is sometimes you got to it’s like dating. You got to date a lot of people before you find the one. And I’m telling you, it took 17 years for Love Sack to find that. And then by the way, it took a decade after that, now we’re at 27. Mhm. To really exploit it. And look what’s happened. From the time I identified that, we’ve experienced ridiculous growth. We’ve

7x the company since we came public. All on the back of this really on the back of this design for life strategy that I shared with you. And and and most customers would never even know that phrase. It’s yeah, it’s on the wall in our stores and stuff like that, but you know, they are buying this couch for whatever reason they need. fits down their stairs, fills out their basement, they’ve heard from friends it’s good. But ultimately, the reason it’s resonating with people in on mass, I believe, is because we’ve tapped into a number of fundamental principles that resonate with people. And so all the brand work that underpins all of that standing on the

foundation of his design for life ethos that ladders up to our purpose that rolls down through our mission which are different things which goes all the way down through our values and culture and everything else to our financial plan for next year and this year and next week. You know it’s interesting about that. We we have a saxal. We have a sack. Oh, cool. We’ve had three different couches in the time that we’ve had those two things. Two different dining room sets, several different iterations of seating areas and those are the constants. And you don’t I didn’t really consider that. Correct. It was just like this pl this piece is just staying here. And when

it gets flat because people have been sitting on it, you just roll it over and you pull it up and it’s all And by the way, even if you jettisoned it from your life, it would probably end up with a kid or a neighbor. No doubt. Because you and I both know that thing’s still totally valid. It’s Yeah. The quality. Mhm. And And by the way, if I get tired of the color, I just change the cover. Yeah. If I want to do that anyway. No, but I’m proud of that. But but get beyond the furniture. My point is this and that’s that’s the unlock right when you realize it’s not about changeable covers for

bean bags or even couches. It’s about the broader like how do you boil that down now to the to the fundamental principles and again built to last designed to evolve it. There’s there’s there’s stuff out there that’s built that’s built well but the design to evolve part’s really hard. The product has to have a lot of weird and unique attributes to really facilitate that. company has to have a lot of weird and unique attributes to facilitate that from an operational standpoint. So what do you end up with in the end? You end up with something an organism both a company and a brand and it’s and a and a let’s call it a product line

that looks and feels and smells radically different than the others. Mhm. That is a brand. Now you may not like the brand. It may not be for you, but there are plenty of people who will. Mhm. And you don’t need everyone to like you or love you to get pretty. Look at Apple. They don’t even have half the market, but they’re doing okay. Yeah, they’re doing all right. You know, one of the things you talk about, you mentioned it is connecting the dots. And it feels like as we talk about your story, connecting the dots in the early days would have been looks like really scattered on this graph. It’s like all over. That’s why

you can’t do it. That’s why it’s impossible to do without letting it emerge. I believe you have but you have to be looking for it though. I never stopped looking. You know what I mean? I never thought, well, I got this cool little bean bag company and we sell a lot of couches, too, and maybe I’ll sell that. I was always looking for this. And it’s weird to me it took so long because obviously looking back, I probably could have connected those dots sooner and and I have no excuse for it. Maybe I should have been smarter. Maybe I should have had better people around me. You know, I don’t know. At the same time,

you know what’s funny? like we’re about to launch into a whole new category. We’ve we’ve said this on Wall Street, so you know, it’s it’s public. Not the specifics, but the fact that, you know, and I believe we can double and triple this company again on this new category. But what’s funny is on the one hand, you could say, ah, we could have seen this coming earlier or done the product development sooner and we could have already been launched. And that’s true. But what’s funny is the world and the the state of the economy and different different dynamics for this particular category aren’t good. And had that been had we launched let’s say two or

three years ago while that might have helped us ride out what’s been a tough time in the furniture category where we’ve been we’ve been a little bit flat in our growth which by the way is really good compared to a lot of our competitors that are half the size they were a few years ago. So, Love Sack’s doing fine, but my point is, God, if only we’d had this sooner. At the same time, sometimes you can’t second guess history. You know, maybe I would have discovered Design for Life sooner and been able to leverage it sooner and be further along. At the same time, I might not have known what to do with it. I

might not have had a team good enough to wrangle it and become what, you know? So, it’s like play the hand you’re dealt and stop worrying about, you know, whether it could have been sooner, better, faster, richer, just keep doing the next thing. And and what’s cool is I have so much faith in that now. And I’ve lived through flipping 27 years to get here. And you could say, and I got all these friends that are on their second or third company, and I’m still running the one I started in, you know, out of high school. It’s embarrassing. as much as I’m proud. You know what I’m saying? Like, I should have been further along

already. I should be a billionaire already. But here’s my point. Here’s my point. Go ahead. When you’ve come this far, then you’re like, “Well, that didn’t kill me.” Okay, I’ll go 27 more standing on this base. Mhm. And and so that’s why I actually believe I am totally convicted that we’re going to build a Nike or an Apple or a Disney out of this thing and we’re going to surprise a lot of people that counted us out. And and a lot of it is just comes down to kind of the will to do it. Like I have the goods now. I have the path. I have the strategy. I didn’t always have it. Now I

even have most of the talent I need. I can afford the world’s top talent. I mean, I’m hiring people from the best companies in the world. I could not have done that 10 years ago, and those people know how to wrangle this strategy that I’m articulating to you. I can be the biggest idiot on the planet. And I am. I’m the weakest link. I am. These people outclass me. They’ve had experiences and educations that I can never get. I’m I missed it. Not just from school, but more importantly from the corporate world. But I get to hire them and I get to hopefully retain them and that’s my job and that’s honestly if that’s all

I do I’m probably going to win. Well, this is a recurring theme on this podcast. It’s from Dick Vermile who’s you know famous Super Bowl winning coach with Eagles and with the Rams and so on and so forth. But he said the key to success is hiring people around you much better than yourself. Yeah. And and the shaism of my book is hire better than you. Mhm. And let them own it. That’s the part that the brash cocky me that you met a long time ago didn’t get. I hired older people, smarter people, better people. But if I’m honest, I had to approve everything and see everything and put my stamp on everything and do

you know what I mean? And and the truth is um those people could not thrive in that environment even though I hired them. Yeah. So, back to even like the conversation we had where you said, “What about, you know, your boss challenges you, debate me, poke holes in this, but then there you have a bad reaction.” Right. That’s his fault. Yeah. Absolutely. And by the way, I do that all the time. I’m sure. But I’m but I’m trying to not I’m trying to be very very careful about how I manage myself in every interaction and failing all the time, but trying. And I think as long as you’re trying, you develop more capacity, you know,

and one day you wake up and oh wow, I can play the piano, you know, like you but you have to you have to every day be trying. And here I am pushing 50 still trying, right? And as long as that’s true and the people for the people around me also that’s true because they’re also fully developed, you know, uh purpose and and success chasing individuals. Together we’re probably going to win. As you describe this, it feels like we’re going through a battle like like it it’s been a battle for 27 years in in lots of ways. And I mean I am I’m like picturing a you know a war movie. It is. And and

so maybe you answered this a little bit before, but I’ll ask it more specifically. Why didn’t you wash out? Like a lot of people would have washed out. I thought about it a thousand times. I probably thought about it this week. like uh I don’t know you know you have a capacity you have like I said you have the ability to to thrive in uncertainty or you don’t you develop that ability or you don’t and obviously I’ve developed some of that ability but it doesn’t mean I don’t question it doesn’t mean I don’t get tired it doesn’t mean I don’t you know in my weakness you know say the wrong thing to my wife or

kid or colleague or whatever You know, so it is a battle and I think the problem is that there are situations that work out ridiculously well. People become a billionaire in a year or they exit their whatever, right? And of course those get headlines cuz they are truly remarkable and there’s so many of them. There’s at least enough of them to keep the headlines going that we all kind of think like, “Dude, I I messed up. Like I am I’m terrible. I suck.” Mhm. You know, my thing’s dinky, my life is dinky, my team is weak, my company’s small, whatever it is. Yeah. But the truth is, for every one of those headlines, and there’s

plenty of them, there are 10,000 other great situations, doing great things with great people that may not be remarkable in that way, but are plenty remarkable. And they’re generating livingings for you or for others. they’re providing, you know, good environments and and then you die. So, like as long as you’re involved in one of those Yeah. before you die. Yeah. Uh life should be good if you choose to let it be. If you choose to accept that, if you choose to see it for what it is and not, you know, it’s just these headlines are just like Instagram. Everyone looks so good. And then, by the way, you look into most of these beautiful people,

beautiful families. You give them long enough, they all fall apart. You you you see what’s behind and so it’s like it’s all fake, man. So don’t be distracted by that. Ignore the t the tallest headlines. Focus on the real people doing the 10,000 others [clears throat] because that’s where that’s where real life is. Yeah. I wish I could I mean I wish we could see you 27 years ago sitting next to you now. I think it’s just a fascinating it’s such a great story and it’s such a fascinating evolution and I think what’s really interesting about it is how thoughtful you are about it and how you’ve let that guide the decisions and the things

that you do today especially with the things that you’ve said are really important family and friends and relationships from the book everything else is dust and it’s controversial for me to say that because you know my own employees could listen to But in the end, you know, it’s in the end it’s just bean bags. It’s just couches. It’s just a company. And I I say that with great respect in the sense that we do get to employ 2,000 people and and growing and we do get to even have great times doing that and people get to make a living and pay their mortgages. So, it’s not that it doesn’t matter, but on a personal level,

if it comes at the expense of my children and their souls and their future and their, you know, what then then what what was the point, you know? And so, it’s tough, man. It’s tough to balance all of that. And and you know, you you brought up the stress and pressure and how did I not succumb? I think I think something always gives you know in the sense that this stress and pressure also takes a toll whether it’s on me physically or something or whether it’s on like the people around me or my wife or kids right and and and and and I think I have a pretty successful marriage and a pretty successful family

overall but it’s not without tremendous effort and plenty of shortcomings and plenty of messed up interactions Mhm. And um we just have to keep actually trying. We not lying to ourselves. We have to act. And that’s why come back man. The root of it all is self-awareness. But everything else is dust. So don’t And what’s the every And so that’s why I wear this ring like my my, you know, upgraded wedding ring that has six black diamonds in it representing, you know, the six of us, my me and my wife and my four kids. And and on the inside of this ring right here, it says everything else is dust. And so I I try

very hard to remain lucid to that. Well, it’s interesting you brought that up because I want to transition to your podcast. Sure. By the way, it’s such a it’s such a great story. I’m glad that there’s a book out because it tells that story. It tells your story and the shaunisms are amazing and uh really meaningful and well the battle scars that you have I talked about earlier. That’s all of the essence of your book. Like that’s all of the that’s the lessons that you’ve learned, the hard one lessons, which is by the way why why I wrote the book the way I did. First of all, it’s short. You can read it in like

an hour. Mhm. Um, second of all, I just tried to be really honest with a lot of this stuff because you read a lot of business books that unfortunately give you that impression. like it’ll it’ll take you through some hard times, but like I tried to really def describe those and and and share some of that detail because unfortunately people are misled by and by the way we want to make it look easy. That’s the back to the conundrum of being an entrepreneur and a founder and a leader, a CEO. My life on Instagram looks amazing. And I mean it to look amazing. And I mean it to look like when I’m on stage somewhere

like I’m nothing but positive and excited and buoyant because as a public company CEO that’s part of the job. But meanwhile crawl, you know, I hire people out of Walmarts and Amazons and you know L’Oreal’s and and they’ll tell you they every one of those companies is so messed up and twisted and screwed up inside. They’ll be the first to tell you that, you know, the minute you get into some sticky wicket, it’s like, don’t worry, we had bigger problems than and it’s like that’s but it looks easy and it looks glamorous, right? Like I I think that business, whatever you however you want to define that, is actually a a really complex and highminded

endeavor because it requires so many disciplines from, you know, all the way starting at self-awareness all the way up through accounting, you know, strategy, like interpersonal selling, like whatever it is, like all the things, 10,000 things that we get to if we want to expose ourselves to and develop prowess in many of them or all of them or some of them simultaneously while trying to raise kids while trying and so I think it’s um an underappreciated you know I think a lot of people just hear business and think of like rich people you know but there’s so much to that journey that’s so interesting if we take it on like that yeah absolutely I think

one of the things you you mentioned uh you know lots of millionaires and billionaires and who have [clears throat] been very successful. Sure. And it’s not like that’s not something you aspire to, but maybe that’s not the most important thing to you. I know plenty of them. Mark Cuban’s on the podcast this week as a reprise and um you know, and he’s great and Richard Branson’s great and I know lots of you know, billionaires incentive millionaires and and a lot of them are great and they have great lives or whatever and a lot of them aren’t. A lot of them are miserable. A lot of them, I think, would trade places with me in a

second, even though I’m still in the hunt. And I’m I’m not even that liquid on paper. All my money’s in love sacks still. You know, I didn’t take chips off the table cuz my my employees are all on the table. You know, why should I be, you know, independently rich while while they while they’re in the struggle, right? Mhm. And I’m not I’m doing fine. But my point is um you don’t need that much money to just live an awesome life to do all kinds of cool things and you know there’s not enough time for it. Like these people that own all these homes and own all these toys, they can’t even utilize them and

in fact they stress them out and then by the way fast forward a decade or two and then then they die. And so while they might have made great investments or whatever, the point is we actually all have the same 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And I do believe in it’s one of the shaisms, playing along the way. I do believe in having a good time. I do believe in living your life. But um I also believe that people, you know, we’re on this earth. We’re expected to work. I I mean I believe that on a religious fundamental spiritual level, you know, and and so even if somehow you intentionally or accidentally

got liquid at 38 years old, okay, what’s next? Not I’m going to I’m going to surf a lot. And there’s nothing wrong with surfing. I surf plenty. Mhm. But I just believe in building and creating and growing and contributing, whatever form that takes. Yeah. And so, um, people get lost. The wealth and the wealth is as much of a curse as a blessing, honestly. And fame, especially, you know, I had to fit my 15 minutes of fame. And you know what that gets you? That mostly gets you a lot of weird inconveniences and no empathy. Once you’re famous, no one you have a bad outcome. You have a you have a problem. You have a

divorce. you have a, you know, I don’t know, a hard time in life. Mhm. And no one feels bad for you cuz you’re famous. You’re famous and you have it all. And even though that sounds like a dumb thing to say, being on the other end of that sucks. Like you feel it doesn’t feel good. Yeah. When you are sort of aware that people like don’t have any sympathy for you because you’re rich or famous, that doesn’t feel good. No. And so, um, be careful what you wish for. and embrace the struggle and just Yeah, it’s true. Be grateful that you have the opportunity to break yourself against these rocks. Yeah. You know, we had

a friend of yours on the podcast recently, Ben Checkets. Oh, yeah. He’s fantastic. Great. Yeah. And he has a concept, I think, that’s similar to your concept and something that I kind of lean into a little bit. He calls it forever forward. It’s from a Walt Whitman poem. Did you know, by the way, that Benets was like an English major? Literature, poetry. That was Yeah, they’re good friends from Connecticut. That’s he’s a very interesting guy. Mhm. Runs a great company. Uh but but this kind of concept of forever forward and you’re talking about kind of this motion and moving forward, taking steps forward and I had a physical therapist who said, you know, if you’re

feeling bad physically, like motion is lotion. But I think that is applicable to life as well. Like you have to keep moving to keep yourself engaged and evolving like like you have done. And so I don’t know how I would wrap this up exactly, but it’s a great story of evolution and moving forward and continuing to strive and learning. like just the simple idea of connecting the dots and where you were and where you are now. Connecting dots, it’s an amazing amazing transformation and I mean I I just uh I’m more excited about Love Sack now than I was when you came in and about the the the future of it. So, thank you. Congratulations

for all that you’ve achieved. And I know you’re not even done. You’re not done. You might not be halfway there. Who knows? Hopefully not. Look, uh I’m proud of what we’re building. I’m grateful for this opportunity. I’m glad that you’re a owner of the product. That That’s awesome. And I’m proud, you know, that we got to build it in Utah. You know, we we’re back. We we have a headquarters down in St. George. It’s our HQ2. It’s a Utah story ultimately. And it’ll be it’ll be, you know, the most loved brand in the world someday. And um I’m proud to be doing that here with with great people that I love. And uh so keep

your eye on Love Sack. And if if you like any of this type of uh rhetoric, you know, definitely check out the podcast, the book, Let Me Save You 25 Years. It’s really just there to be useful to people. I, you know, I don’t do any paid advertising on it or anything like that. I just like to to share, you know, some things that I was able to learn and learn from my guests. It’s been amazing. It’s a super useful I think you described it perfectly. It’s a super useful podcast. Thanks. And so I that I really enjoy that. And you know there’s a podcast for everything these days. This is one that you should

should tune in tune into. So let me save you 25 years. Sean D. Nelson, come back and see us. I want to know what’s happening along this path that continues to unfold. Thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to the Know Your Ship podcast presented by EHUB. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review.