How This Founder Scaled a National Brand on a Mother’s Legacy

took me too long to realize that she started the company and did it solely for me. Like she didn’t need to do it. She didn’t have any attention. She really does not had no desire ever to build a brand around her name. But she did it because she was worried that I wasn’t going to get a job. Welcome to the Know Your Ship podcast presented by E-Hub. I’m your host, Frank Dolce. What’s a nickname for Sterling? Like what do people call you? Stir fry. That’s all I got. I never I actually was like I never had uh like the nickname. Like all my buddies had one and I never had one. Well, one guy growing

up called me Sturls. Sturles. Sterles. Was he from Texas? It was from like the East Coast. Sterl. Get a hit. Sturl be on the baseball. My dad’s like, “Nobody says Sterl. No one says Sturl.” But he did and it was kind of liked it actually because it was like the only nickname I had. Well, let’s talk about that growing up. Uh, your experience growing up. Mom and dad grew up in in Arizona, correct? Were you in Arizona the whole time? I know your your parents moved around a little bit. Born and raised Mesa, Arizona until I was 19. Gotcha. Yep. And then uh you decided to leave Arizona, come to school up here in Utah.

Uh between that went on a church mission um to Singapore, Malaysia. So spent two years in Singapore, Malaysia. So then and then yes after those two years came to Utah at 21 to go to school. Okay. Tell us about that missionary experience. What are some of the takeaways generally? How how was that experience? Man, life-changing. Truly, I like to say the best two years for my life. The best thing I could do out of high school. You’re spending the whole day focused on other people. So learning how to, you know, serve other people. Also, it’s hard. I mean, you are waking up and you’re you go out every day, knock doors, talk to random people.

So, I you know, and I I loved people. Um blessed for that with that for my mom. And so, I I loved it. Definitely the kind of a launch pad to teach me I can do hard things. Um also what’s important in life honestly at the end of it is it kind of gets you rooted in the things that matter most in life. You do have this entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah. Is that dad, mom, some combination? I’d say my dad has definitely an entrepreneurial mindset, you know. He he absolutely like is entrepreneurial. He also definitely appreciates um uh security, you know. So he’s fortunately works for a company that allows entrepreneurial, you know, within, you know,

so it’s it’s good. And then my mom more so believed in me. So she kind of gave me she believed in me before I believed in myself. And so she helped me along that journey and definitely the mindset of you can do anything you set your mind to. And she had a dad who was actually entrepreneurial however like steered her away from something she wanted to do. And so I think she really took the opposite approach of like if that’s what you want to do go for it. Like just absolutely go for it. And so I was blessed to have her take that approach of it doesn’t need to be what we think you should

do or how how meaningful was that to have as you reflect back someone who believed in you maybe before you believed in yourself. It’s it’s the reason I’m here today with the company I have 100% because of my mom. Not just cuz she made the first recipe, but 100% cuz she believed in me before I did. You know, cuz I my biggest hold hold up early on was actually choosing to be an entrepreneur. I was worried what other people would think of me. You know, I was worried about when when you say I’m going to be an entrepreneur. I mean, there is no blueprint, right? You say I’m going to be an investment banker, which

is where I was headed. I mean, it’s get this do these classes, get this internship, then get this job. Very distinct path. This is what you do. And if you do it right, you’ll you’ll you’ll succeed. Where you say, “I’m going to be an entrepreneur.” like what are you going to do and when you make that usually you don’t have an idea right sometimes you already start but for me I didn’t have any idea I didn’t I just thought I want to create a company I want to create something that solves a problem for people okay so you were headed down the path of in be becoming an investment banker did growing up did did

you did did you also have this idea that you wanted to start your own thing or did that okay not at all that was not the kid who was selling baseball cards. Well, I think it’s interesting because just visiting with you for the last several minutes and trying to understand about your how you grew up and your parents’ influence, it doesn’t feel like or it doesn’t seem like that and like the investment banking path seems ultra competitive and like lots of ego and I don’t know I mean in a good way. I don’t know that that is your personality. Yeah. A line definitely. Luckily, I figured that out before I went too far down. It

was more I mean, investment bankers are amazing and and very, you know, can be very, very successful. But yeah, it was just I really went to college having no idea. The first time I even like heard the idea of like, hey, you could chase American dream was actually going back to when I was serving a mission for my church and my our leader said, you ever thought about just doing your own thing? And I was like, can I do that? like he’s like, “Yeah, can’t you build a company and work yourself out a job and follow American dream?” And so that’s kind of the first seed planted. And then going back to my mom, the

reason I’m even here is she signed me up for my first my semester of college. I know it’s kind of embarrassing. My mom signed me up for my classes cuz she knew I wouldn’t do it. I can see this happening. Like your mom’s sitting there with the application. Oh, it wasn’t gonna happen if I stirral. You gonna sign up? No, I’m not. Are you gonna do it for me? And so she did and she signed me up randomly. You know, I don’t believe in chances, but uh in the intro to entrepreneurship class, intro to entrepreneurship. And it she knew transformed my life. Transformed my life. She knew. That’s why she signed up. She was like,

“I have to take I have to take control of the situation.” Oh, 100%. And uh I remember sitting in that class like elbowing my buddy being like, “Are you feeling this? Like this is incredible.” He’d be like, “What are you talking about?” I’m like, “Okay, this clearly is speaking to And that’s and I was fortunate for that cuz some people don’t like get that, you know, and people feel that way about other things and I never did. And so going back to like I started down investment banking route because like people like oh you should do the accounting program it’s really good at BYU you should do finance program and so I accounting worst grade

I ever got. So quickly was like no finance. Got into the program and then quickly realized this is not for me. I remember day one sitting there and they laid out the blueprint the the way to get to the and I just thought I do not want to do that. I don’t like that just sounds for me personally. Yeah. And tor like torture. Yeah. And so I was like no. And even after that it’s still like okay well I’ll transfer into the uh HR program cuz then it’s at least you still have a path. And then I was fin like okay just make the decision and do it. But I just was so worried about

telling my dad I wasn’t gonna do finance, telling other people. Went on a date and I said to the girl, “Yeah, I’m gonna do the entrepreneurship program.” She’s like, “What are you gonna do with that?” And I thought about saying, “I’ll hire you in 10 years.” But I did say that. Oh, such a good comeback. She was in the accounting program, so I thought about saying it, but I didn’t because that wasn’t the right thing. That was probably the right thing not to say it, but and then I obviously didn’t keep dating her. But anyways, yeah. So, it took a while for me to really commit to it. Um, but you were feeling it. 100%.

100%. Yep. And that’s my thing. I feel like there are so many other kids in college that are like they fill a pole, but there isn’t a there isn’t a road map for them. And also, they’re asking people who haven’t done it, and they don’t ever just like take that step. It’s such a good lesson to kind of following your gut or having the ability to follow your gut. You know, you mentioned something like maybe peer pressure or what other people might think was kind of guiding you down this path that you weren’t really meant to go. Mhm. And I think a lot of us end up in that like um you know once upon

a time there was this there was this thing and and I look back on this in my own life like maybe you know was that the right thing to do there it was it was the PE major physical education major but if you were in the PE major then you were considered like the dumb jock and I didn’t want to be considered the dumb jock and so you know you lean away from that and and and and then looking back you’re like wait a second that’s that was really good alignment maybe I now I’m thinking that maybe I was just a dumb junk that maybe that was the right path but but finding how meaningful

for you in your life has it been finding that alignment and being aligned with what you are really passionate about it it’s everything I mean I I remember in those class like during college I was I listen to Steve Jobs a lot just his and he said something like, you know, if you look in the mirror too many days in a row and you hate what you’re doing, you need to make a change. And I just like luckily I heard that early on and realized like already I know I’m going to hate this. And so I just didn’t want to set myself up for that. And I also looked around. I was like, how many

people get a degree in something and end up not even doing that? or how many people just stick in it because it’s what they did and they’re like the oh I put in the time I put in that and yeah they feel like they have to because they invested yeah you’re invested but it’s like that’s a sunk cost right um it wasn’t I as you were saying that I remember one and it’s funny it’s such a small moment like truly like 30 seconds of my life that I was in that moment trying to decide what to do and luckily my brother-in-law was like you should come talk to one of my my friends and just

they were at um I think we were at a church setting and he just said hey come come sh chat with him went up to him and was And he goes, “Hey,” he’s trying to decide. Should we do the finance program or the entrepreneurship program? He goes, “Oh, 100% entrepreneurship program.” It was the first person that like just like didn’t even hesitate. And I was like, “Whoa, clearly I’ve been asking the wrong people cuz if this guy’s so confident and everybody else, so it was like I was asking people that were in the finance program, of course they’re going to say that asking, you know, and so you it helped me like just a different

perspective and it helped me also be like, okay, like I need to follow my gut.” Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is probably a good part in the podcast to talk about the significant influence in your life and how that led to where you are today. So, um that of course is your mom. Yeah. Jojo. Absolutely. Is Jojo her nickname? I mean, we talk about nicknames. Jojo. Yep. Yep. Jod Jones was her name. And so, she’d get called Aunt Jojo or, you know, Yeah. you by you youth camp Jojo. So yeah. Yeah. Yep. Uh sounds like an amazing person. Absolutely. And well, you tell me. How do you want to manage the story? Do you want

to just tell us? Sure. Do you want to tell us the story? Yeah, you bet. Okay. Yeah. So, in 2012, my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer. Um, speaking of how incredible and since we already mentioned it, I was I was living in Singapore, Malaysia at the time she was diagnosed, but she was planning to come out and pick me up. It was May. She got the di diagnosis. She was coming to pick me up in June. She told no one besides my her husband, my dad. Um they kept it quiet. Came and picked me up, traveled, and it’s hot there and she’s eating food. And then we get back and it’s and then we

lay out the plans cuz I have been gone for two years. She lays out plans for the week and like we’ll do this, we do this, and then on Thursday I got to go in for an operation. You didn’t know? No idea. And she go for operation and then on Friday we’ll do this. And I was like, time out, mom. What? an operate like that’s just slid it in there. Never wanted to burden somebody just a little operation. Yep. And she was going in for you know and so anyways the reason I mentioned that is like that’s how my mom lived was it truly going back to that life is 10% what happens to you

how you respond and she just said I’m going to beat it. I I’m going to go after it. I’m going to keep living my life. I’m and I’m going to and the thing that the reason I started the company is I watched my my whole life the way my mom lived. But then especially during such a trying time, she still chose to love others, serve others, have so much hope and optimism. And it was amazing. And I thought, man, if we could build a brand that hopefully embodied that and could just share some of that love, we could make a difference that hopefully through and you know, chocolate’s a love language for some people, especially

my mom. And it just made sense that my mom would start I mean not she had no plan of starting a company but it just made sense that like she started a chocolate company and truly we’re trying to spread love like through that company. The thing about if I am understanding this if I understand the story correctly the thing that I think is so amazing is that your it sounds like your mom didn’t she had the cancer but she never made it about herself. It was like she still had this servant attitude 100% serving others. Yep. um and not about and isn’t that like especially it feels like today maybe it’s not just today maybe

I’m just putting it on today and maybe it’s throughout the ages but you know there’s this rather than focusing on the service aspect and other people we have a tendency to I mean we all have self-interest we have tendency to be it’s all about me and how do I achieve in this rather than Yeah. You know, and my mom is one of she lived a life full of joy. Like one of the happiest people I I’ve ever known and just full of joy. And it wasn’t just how can I help. She she’d see a need and just you know how we we all say how can I help you? She she wouldn’t even ask. She

would just do it. She’d just show up, you know. and just was amazing that one of my favorite stories through her cancer journey was somebody else got diagnosed with cancer in our neighborhood um while my mom was going through it and this lady had a much harder time getting out of bed getting going and I remember my mom she went over there she showed up lady couldn’t get out of bed she walked in the house threw back the curtains in her bedroom and said get up let’s go and just saved that woman’s life because it turned her into you’re not going to let this you’re not you know sure It may take your body, but

you don’t have to give it that power. Like you can keep moving forward. And I and my mom’s cancer, you know, she battled for seven years, went away for a few years, came back, you know, after six years, and then battled for another year. And I believe strongly those last days. I mean, her body was her body was gone, but her brain, her mind was so strong, it kept her here. She willed herself here extra days beyond when she should have been. Yeah. Okay. So 2012 she gets this diagnosis and then she had surgery. Mhm. Uh and so uh she’s a choahholic. Sugar is no good, right? With cancer. Yep. And and so she needed

something to satisfy Exactly. Cravings, right? Specifically those chocolate cravings. Yep. And so did she have any background or experience in the culinary arts? Um she was an incredible baker and I joke the first healthy thing she ever made was Jojo’s. I mean, growing up, it was cinnamon uh orange rolls, the best cookies, Texas sheet cake. I mean, everything, right? Just the good stuff. And and she knew that. So, she said, “I got to make something that, you know, still like get my chocolate fix, but it has a little bit of protein. It’s more satisfying.” We joke like she should have been a food scientist cuz she nailed the macros. Like, nailed them without really in

plan intentionally, you know? I mean, I’d say she, you know, knew what she was trying to create, but wasn’t a food scientist by any means. And so, she created this bar that had dark chocolate, which is, you know, more satisfying because not as much sugar. She added almonds, pistachios, cuz she knows they’re are good for your heart and they’re good, you know, also add a little bit of protein. Then cranberries just to sweeten it up a little bit. Yeah. And then she put protein in the chocolate. So then you, you know, you have less carbs and more protein. And it really became she’d just make it on a cookie sheet. Like she’d go get these

dark chocolate bars, melt it down, make it on a cookie sheet, put it in the fridge, and she’d walk by, take a little piece, you know, 11:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m., 8:00 p.m. She had a schedule and just kind of like let her, you know, anytime that was like, “Ah, I’m I’m really craving that Snickers or I’m really craving that, you know, piece of cake at night.” She turned a little piece. And so no intention of starting company, just truly trying to solve a need for herself. And that’s when I saw I was like, one, I would love to build a brand around you, mom. Like, you’re my hero. Like, could I build the brand ethos

around you? And then two, she’s not I assumed she wasn’t the only one trying to satisfy her sugar cravings, less sugar. And that’s really kicked off like my obsession for health. I’d say even four years prior, my obsession for health happened when I had my own kind of health, not crisis, but health transformation. Um and then it evolved as your somebody you love goes through that and you realize how important food is. Okay. Food medicine. Where did your health you don’t want to call it a crisis? Yeah. So my end of junior year um I in college in uh high school. Yeah. So like I was kind of sick for like 3 to four months

just like a head constant head cold. In fact I even got uh the deviated septum surgery cuz they thought that would help. Didn’t do any in fact made it worse. like I just was constantly congested in my head, headache and I was trying to play football and basketball. And so I finally went to um I was like, “Okay, well that didn’t work.” In fact, made it worse. Went to a natural path, just more focused on food, you know, and body. And he said he took did a blood test and said, “Let’s go off dairy and gluten. Try it. Do it.” In two weeks could breathe for the first time in months. In four weeks, my

head was clear. I had all my energy because I was so low on energy. when you just feel like you have kind of a a flu, a cold. Yeah. You just lower and all my energy back. So, I was really strict for about a year. No dairy. Well, two years really. No dairy, no uh gluten. Um and then I went luckily we lived in Singapore, Malaysia. There’s not much dairy and gluten there. rice and you know so was fortunate kind of and so I just saw how much better I felt and I had my energy you know and and so that’s kind of what kicked me off of this kind of I call it health

journey obsession of food is medicine you know we are sick because of the toxins because of the food we’re eating the ultrarocessed and just well it’s so timely that you’re mentioning this because the food and drug administration just two days ago yeah released literally flipped the food pyramid completely upside down. Upside down. Yeah. For how many years we’ve been told it’s this way and now it’s this way. Yeah. And I think if you’ve experienced it like that, you have some actual like wait this is I feel much better when I follow it. When I’m Yeah. Absolutely. When I’m doing this unbelievable I mean for how many years I mean how many years were we told

Yeah. What is it upside down? You’ll have to Google this, but 50 70% Americans are considered overweight or obese. Yes. Right. Yeah. And and a lot of that is all of this stuff that we’re dealing with like the ultra processed foods and you know we just Anyway, yeah. So, we’re on a hopefully we’re on a much better path now. But you I think we’re on a path it’s going to take a long time. you experience that on your own without ever that’s what I feel like I’ve seen is tr time it does take a health crisis for people to change because it’s so habitual what we eat what we do and so it does take

and people like I feel good enough you know and so I want to make that hard change and so I’ve seen around like it’s really usually something happens something and then like people like oh I see how different I feel Right. And so it’s really interesting. I know this is kind of a funny parallel, but in the shipping and logistics business where we spend spend our time, we we kind of have that same thing with people in the warehouse and people who are moving products around and it’s like it’s working, you know? I don’t and I don’t know. It feels overwhelming to make it change. Maybe it’ll be better, maybe it won’t. I don’t know.

And then you, you know, you make the change, you’re like, wow, why wasn’t I doing this the whole time? But people manage their health that way as well. Like I’m fine, you know, I’m kind I’m doing a okay and but is could you maximize? Could you improve? Could you be a lot better? And the answer is yes. Absolutely. You can find that. Okay. So your mom starts making these chocolates. She comes up with the bark that turns out to be like nails it. It nails it. Yep. And you you think um are you thinking you’re thinking at this point I think there’s something here. I think we can I think there’s a business around this.

Are you in school at this point? Still in school. Yeah. So, when she got diagnosed in 2012, 2013 was when she started making because when she went through the chemo radiation treatments, that’s when her cravings hit an all-time high. And so, kind of that year, she just did it in our kitchen. I would come I came home from school for an internship that summer after I had taken that intro to entrepreneurship class. That was like, okay. Like, I that’s when I was like, I want to find something. I was like, mom, maybe this is it. like let’s and it was more like let’s go see right they had taught the principal like go test and

validate go see so said let’s let’s try it so she’s like can we call it Jojo’s I was like heck yeah let’s go so she comes up and I’ll tell you the one thing she did not gift with get which I also did not get which is design ability the branding the packaging was so bad so bad initially oh my gosh like I mean I made like a little logo in word document and put it on a sticker and cellophane bag and we went to this CrossFit competition and thought, “Okay, they’re health conscious, right?” Yeah. And they want to eat like some more protein and less sugar. So, yeah. Sold out and was like, “Maybe

we got something here.” Like you you just like had a booth or something like a table with Jojo Kirkland table, right? And uh I don’t even think we had a tablecloth. It was so bad. We had a banner behind us. Yeah. Did you ever think maybe people just felt bad for you? for sure. Luckily, enough people felt bad for me for me to keep going. I thought, yeah, maybe two or three, you know, will feel bad, but it was enough people that bought it. And so, I thought, all right, let’s go, Mom. Oh, man. So naive at the time, but just just so like, hey, let’s go. Let’s try it. Okay, so you started the

business and she was making it the kitchen. Yep. Yeah. Yep. and started at CrossFit and then what like what was your business plan? How did you how did you lay one? Um but I mean early on true entrepreneur, let’s go. Yeah, literally. So I thought, okay, we’ll go to every CrossFit compet uh CrossFit gym or box as they call it and try to sell it. Tried that and realized quickly I was going to starve to death cuz you don’t go to a CrossFit gym to buy something like chocolate. You go to work out. And so like we were trying to sell it in and yeah they liked it but it wasn’t the right place to

sell the product. And so then I was like hey yoga studios went out to San Francisco slept in my car again you don’t go to yoga studio like I’m going to buy treats and snacks you know and protein you know. So it learned people loved it but it wasn’t right channel. And so again my mom was still writing or still uh making the kitchen. We kind of had some influencers just talking about us. We had a few orders online. Then my buddy was selling sleeping bags on Amazon um and just absolutely crushing it and I was like well that’s what was what was special about the sleeping bags? Was he selling a special sleeping bag?

He I mean it had definitely had his own niche but it also was cost you know and so it was was he making the I mean he was importing them and is he still selling sleeping bags? He’s doing very well. Yeah. I mean he’s evolved. Yeah. Now now I’m I want to talk to that. Let’s have him. Let’s have this guy on the podcast. Yeah. Tasting Whitaker. That sounds like that sounds like an amazing story. Outdoor outdoor vitals. He’s incredible. Outdoor sleep. Okay. Yeah. So, he was like, “Hey.” I was like, “Well, that’s different. It’s sleeping bags. People aren’t going to buy chalk.” Like, “Try it.” And we went for it. And we put Jojo’s

on Amazon. And all a sudden, we started getting consistent orders. It was kind of the first time I saw repeat, right? Just repeat business, repeat orders, great reviews. And, you know, Amazon’s, you know, early on it was organic reviews, right? Just people that bought it. And so I was like, “Wow, we got something here.” And and quickly got to a point where it was definitely not going to work for my mom to make it in our kitchen. And in fact, we got one KSL article here in Utah. She got a 100 orders that night. I was in Utah. She was in Arizona. She’s like, “How do I make this? It’s 120 degrees in Arizona.” And

she’s like, “What am I going to do?” So I drive my car down. We make it all day. And then what we would do is literally turn on the car at 8:30 p.m. We found one USPS that stayed open till 9:30 p.m. We would cool the car down, package all the boxes in styrofoam, put it in the car, drive to the USPS at 9:15 as it’s driving away, and put it on the back of the truck. So it stayed melt. So it stay in Arizona for hour and a half, right? Get on the plane and leave. Oh my gosh. Yeah. My dad’s like, “What are you guys doing?” Rightfully so. He questioned like, “What are

you doing? You can’t make chocolate in Arizona. And really, would you say your dad was not a believer in the beginning or um skeptic? He was wise. He was Yeah. Like I mean know rightfully so. He couldn’t see the vision. The voice of re would he would be a voice of reason. Voice of reason. There’s Yeah, let’s call it that. Perfect. Who else said? I mean, he’s used to buying a piece of dirt that you can put a home on and he can sell it to somebody. Like makes a lot of sense. Selling chocolate Arizona. Arizona shipping. No, I don’t I don’t I’m not getting any of this. What? Okay, so if you have a

hundred orders, how much chocolate are you? I mean, even I want to say baking, but yeah, at that time my my favorite comparison, I mean, my mom used to buy I mean, 100 orders would have been um like let’s see, not even like 50 lbs of chocolate. So, not that much at all. Maybe 100 pounds of chocolate. And so still like manageable in your kitchen. You go buy it, you know, buy it in bulk and melt it down. Um to give context, last year we booked 2.5 million pounds of chocolate. You bought we bought bought and sold 2.5 million pounds. How many how many containers containers of chocolate? 2.5 million pounds of chocolate. Quickly try

to do math. Uh what is that? 10 100 Oh that’s a lot of containers. That’s a lot of containers. You know what? I just realized if you’re if you’re doing 2.5 million pounds of chocolate, what is like the seas doing? Seas, Hershey, Mars. Can you imagine? No, I can’t either yet. I’m trying to imagine it. For a moment, I thought, oh, 2.5 million pounds of chocolate like that probably is the whole world of chocolate. Do you know how how much chocolate that is? Yeah, it’s what when I go, wow. And wow. So, yeah. So going back to your question like her making it. So after that big order it was like okay we you know

and my mom was not she wanted it to be perfect. she wasn’t thinking of economies of scale setting up the operations and it was and so we we found luckily a Utah chocolate company that would just make us a batch kind of once a week and they were a small chocolate company yet like what we made was like literally an hour a day an hour a week for them and they’d make it we’d sell it and they we kept now were they making the bar the yeah we gave them our recipe they would make it for us so you transitioned from mom’s kitchen. Mom’s kitchen to But now you’re incorporating a new cost into your

Yeah. And but we weren’t really taking into account mom’s cost at the time. Yeah. I mean, it was year one. Mom was free. Yeah. Mom was free. The best thing I remember her asking after very low cost production. Are we ever going to pay ourselves? Did she say that? Yeah, of course. And then really it was more like are you ever going to make pay yourself? So tell me about that. Were you making any money? Oh, not early on. No, no. I mean, what was the issue? Um, just scale just like many things, but um I mean we made enough to like just fund the company, right? It was I mean we started with I

had 500 bucks. She put a,000 bucks in and that bought us our our table, our banner and our our ingredients and a couple t-shirts. Um and I I have a video of the first time I wrote myself a check. Um, it would have been I’d been married for 6 months. So, summer of 2016, we had been running 2016. You’ve been doing this for 2 years. Three years. Yeah. Yeah. Two and a half. Three years. And I mean, it was a $1,000 check. Like, okay, finally get to pay myself um, you know, 1,000 bucks a week, maybe. And, uh, but it just was, you know, and I mean I So, I would do different things to

just at least live, right? Get by. Um, but it was wasn’t until we had Amazon like really churning of like, okay, like here’s consistent revenue. But like I said, trying to go to these what I realized was go to like a yoga studio, they’re going to buy $100. You know, your profit’s 15 bucks. You know, it’s going to take a lot of those to make any money. And so, it wasn’t until Amazon was selling, you know, 100 orders a day that I was like, “Okay, here’s something here.” And then when we really saw it was we got um pitched sprouts and this is a great story by the way. I you you should tell that

story about sprouts. So we were um we actually had my wife wanted to just cuz I was really me and my mom at the time. So we moved to moved to Washington just to experience something. And I remember that year I set a goal every day I was going to send two emails out to some buyer. Whole Foods, Sprouts, Costco, anything. And it was like 4:30 p.m. I was like I got to get this done. So I sent out a buyer. I just like went on LinkedIn, found a buyer’s email, happened to be the VP, and I said, “Hey, we’re a local Arizona company. Can I come show you?” He said, “Yeah, I can be

here tomorrow.” Cuz I said, “Local Arizona, I wasn’t living in Arizona at the time.” So, sure enough, bought a flight, flew down. And I meet with him. He’s like, “Yeah, let’s do like an Arizona special.” And then he goes, “Well, could you do the whole country?” And of course, I said, “Yes.” Meanwhile, absolutely, no problem. And uh he said, “Okay, let me bring in the chocolate buyer.” because he was more over kind of merchandising. And so he brings in the chocolate buyer and the buyer takes because in grocery stores, right? There’s somebody that buys cereal, somebody buys chocolate, somebody buys milk. And so they have their specific category. He comes in in charge of all

kind of all chocolate candy, takes a bite, throws it in the trash, goes good. Walks out. I thought, well, that didn’t go so well. Oh jeez. And the VP goes, that’s glowing praise from him. Okay. Man of it feel that feels like a Seinfeld character, right? like truly felt like I was in a movie. Just like what do you what do they call Yeah, it was the soup Nazi. The chocolate soup Nazi. Yep. We know. Yeah. Good. Throws away. He didn’t even finish it. Finish it. He bit in half, you know. Um so, and that Okay. So, in that brand, uh Jojo’s chocolate is that aligns with kind of the sprouts. Yeah, it was we

were you knowity like said bad packaging was like this brown craft bag that looked very natural did not look like it was delicious chocolate. So okay in in this experience of going to yoga classes and to crossfit gyms and trying to sell with and then having some success on Amazon. When did you decide or how did you decide okay the shopping experience isn’t at the studio or at the gym it’s at this it’s at a retail location? Yeah, I was kind of well kind of one looking like at myself and my asking where do people buy chocolate at the end of the day like they you don’t go to CrossFit gym to buy chocolate. You

don’t and even still today it’s true and especially you know in 2017 and 18 like you weren’t going to Amazon necessarily like people were buying everything but like the vast majority of people are going to a grocery store and they’re buying everything else like oh yeah I’m going to get some chocolate you know need to snack on something so even though we were having some success on Amazon I realized like the growth is going to come from grocery stores that is where consumers are still buying and even you know yeah maybe shopper behavior has changed a little bit and more are buying on Instacart, but they’re buying on Instacart from a grocery store. Mhm. And

so we realized, okay, we got to like figure that out. I had no idea how to do. And one last thing on Amazon, like you can when you have a temperature controlled product, you can only be on Prime, you know, 6 months out of the year. And when you lose that Prime badge, you we lose like 50% of our sales immediately. Um, you know, come May 1st, Prime badge drops off. You look at May sales versus um April sales, it, you know, it’s almost 40 to 50% less. So I was like, “Okay, well that obviously is a barrier and not one that you it’s the way it is on Amazon, right? Unless you’re maybe Mars,

you know?” So pivoted and we got into Sprouts and took us nationwide and at the same time we had been talking to Costco uh for a year at the time from our first meeting to the first order was a year and a half with Costco. And I remember we got 15 Costco clubs, Costco wholesale um locations and those 15 was as many as 350 sprouts in revenue. No way. And that’s when I thought, okay, I can see where the volume and how we could really make this work. How did Costco manage that with 15 stores? Was it geographic? Yeah. Was it just so they have eight regions in Costco? Um and for our category in

Costco, it’s manage each region manages their own um chocolate products. And so it was it was like eight in Utah and it was Utah, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. So you got the Sprouts in 200 2018. Sprouts in 2018, Costco, also 2018. Also 2018, like January with Sprouts, I think. Um and um April and it was right by my birthday. So that’s like explosive. Yeah. Yep. And fortunately we had we had grown out of that small chocolate factory and in that year and a half where we went from talking to Costco to the first order. We went from three different factories like and luckily they said yes. They said yes, but not yet at Costco. And

they kind of gave me like, oh, this is what it would be. And I quickly realized our current chocolate factory, there’s I mean, it would take them six months to make that volume. Yeah. So, fortunately, even though I was like begging for it, fortunately, they gave us more time. U not intentionally, but it just happened and we were able to find another factory that could actually make that money. So, operationally, you were able to manage that. Yeah. Through whatever the circumstances were. Had had you been thoughtful about that prior to these? No, because I I just didn’t really frankly I had no like frame of reference of like how much volume like is a Costco

order, you know? I I was living in the like little studio by studio Amazon volume, right? And and so when I get it’s like they order a pound at a time. It’s 480 bags of a pound of chocolate. I mean on our website we sell half a pound, right? And so it was just so luckily it gave me time to be like whoa we this is a lot of volume to be able to maintain and so we found a factory that could do it and actually our our progression of factories after that one we were with them for about a year and a half and got into you know 70 costs and from 15 to

70 they couldn’t keep up anymore and so we found actually we um found a factory in Canada and so we make the product in Canada and again the first one in Canada didn’t work out the second one did Um and so we were in our So when you say it didn’t work out, didn’t did did it not work out because of uh the ability to to produce that much or quality or cost or um the the one in Canada was they actually so it’s co-manufacturing, right? Like they they have all the machinery, they make other people’s products, right? Yeah. And after a few months and their brand started, they they really capitalized on the keto

trend for those two years and it took off for them and we were getting like, hey, we might be able to make it for you. We and so it was like, you know, we can’t have a maybe on making a product. So found another one and they’re a true co-manufacturer. They don’t have their own brand, you know, they make other people’s products and so they’re a phenomenal partner. They also have invested lots of money to grow with us. I mean, they went from making on one line, we have three lines designated just to Jojo with them and so great partner and have continued to scale with us. So, at one point you had a local

and I’m talking Utah local chocolate supplier and tell me about that process of I mean because now you’re talking about lots of chocolate. Yeah. And where how did you go about that? How did you how did you find the right manufacturer or supplier of the of the chocolate? Yeah. So early on, like I said, we were I mean we were buying it from local stores, right? And then when we went to um our second factory, they were and we were actually buying we were purposely buying European chocolate at the time um in mom’s kitchen. It was her favorite kind. So we that’s what we were buying. And then when we went to our second factory,

they actually were sourcing European chocolate. And so we were able to kind of tap into their supply. And so then, but that was still small. when we went to the third factory, we had to then source our own chocolate. And so I found we weren’t quite big enough to go direct to the source. We found a broker um to that was importing the chocolate for us, worked with them. But then after, you know, one year of Costco, we were quickly his largest, you know, um customer in the US. And so that got attention of the actual chocolate maker in Europe. And so after that time, you know, we were able to work some work it

out. After a few months, we went directly to the source and then we sourced directly from Germany. So they are the chocolate maker. You know, they take the product, make it into the chocolate chips that we use that gets put on a boat over to Canada, gets melted down, and that’s where we make, you know, the peanut butter, the almond, pistachio, cranberry, our flavors from there. What are the challenges associated with sourcing? What were the what were the things that you were that you that you that worked out well or the things that you thought, “Oh man, we didn’t do this right.” Yeah, we you know, we haven’t taken the approach of like we so

we we know where our beans come from and we purposely blend them from two origins so we get the right flavor, but we aren’t fully integrated into like the source of the beans. We went to kind of the chocolate m cuz yeah, just due to resources, right? Um but you know we’ve been fortunate u cocoa market had been pretty steady until two years ago and it absolutely hit an all-time high. I mean in supposeding like ever you right I mean we were paying just to give kind of rough dollar amount like call it $2.50 a pound roughly right it at one point if we had to have bought chocolate was $9 a pound and this

is in 12 months. I mean you can’t raise your prices that much. Luckily, we had at least some booked out, but we did end up buying at $6.50 a pound. So, you’re still two and a half times. Um, so what we did well was in that time period, I mean, we stayed very close to our supplier and they were such a great partner with us. You know, we I’d say it was more lucky. We at the end of the year before it went crazy, we had bought a bunch of chocolate and then we actually got a program using organic chocolate. And so we were able to use a different organic chocolate. Mhm. For the kind

of those first 6 months with our biggest customer and we had all this chocolate left over before it had raised price. So honestly it was luck. No. And then so we didn’t really have to buy at the new price for 12 months later and then it started coming down. So we just, you know, we are not we are not expert chocolate buyers. We’re not buying futures and all that, but we just have great partners that help us and then we monitor as best we can. Before we before we I we’re going down this path of kind of now we’re in in the business and some of the the the challenges that you have to overcome

and but but tell me about um in this process where how is your mom engaged and Yeah. and how are you building this thing together is your Yes. So, kind of through those five years that she got to be a part of it from home kitchen, Amazon, Sprouts, Costco. Uh once we got into Costco, then we were no longer making in the kitchen. So, she got to be involved. She would go do Costco demos and was the greatest at it. Just the greatest. And Sprouts demos, too. So, we did a lot Whole Foods. We did a lot of sampling in the stores. Mhm. And I mean, she would just sell like hot cakes cuz people

loved her and she just such a dynamic personality. I mean, if you were in the Costco, you could probably hear her because she was she was laughing or other people were laughing or or crying. Um, usually with Jodie Jones, you were crying and laughing if you had a conversation with her in one. She had an ability to do that. And so, um, so she got to be a part of that. She also got to see us. Um, in 2019, we raised money with a local group here in Utah. So, she got to kind of see that. Um, and I’d say by the end of 2019, she’s like, “Okay, I think you’re actually going to pay

yourself.” So, she got to see that. Uh, you know, as a as a mom, something, you know, obviously being a parent now, like you get so much satisfaction out of seeing your own kids do something, right? She got to see me be on Forbes 30 under 30. Like, she got to see a couple of these accomplishments. And I said this at her funeral. When I started the company, I thought, you know, I was starting it for her to kind of build a brand around Jodie Jones and Jojo and spread her story. I mean, it took me too long to realize that she started the company and did it solely for me. Like, she didn’t need

to do it. She didn’t have any attention. She really does not had no desire ever to build a brand around her name, but she did it because she was worried that I wasn’t going to get a job. [gasps] Her son’s graduating from college with no plans, you know? She’s like, “Okay, I’ll help you.” Wow. And so she she did it for me and and uh got to see that journey, you know. Um and it was it was fun. We had an absolute blast. Those first five years are frankly like, you know, you you try to enjoy the whole journey, but those first five years are just just cherished memories. My wife was a part of

it, my sister. It was it was a blast. H how long uh how how long was your wife how long had she been kind of involved in the business or in the family? Um, so we got married in 2016 and she thought she was marrying some, you know, successful chocolier and quickly realized, yeah, like Utah’s own Willy Wonka. Yeah. Not even close. And uh, I joke I I always wanted to drop out of school. My mom would let me, but I convinced my wife to so she could help us with the company. Um, but she’s really into health, so she did uh, you know, she’s a certified health coach, did that. So that kind of

brought a great um, education to what we were doing, you know, great insights. And so she she helped you know I mean with everything from packaging boxes to you know the branding the image of the brand to also the education side of it to outreach to influencers. So um up until we had our uh really I mean she was involved with our first baby cuz she could still do stuff at home. The second one got tougher and then by our third baby you know we had raised money and we were building a team and she jokes I fired her but it was really I just you know wanted her time back. I wanted to spend

some time with her cuz she had kids all day and then you know would do Jojo stuff at night. But she was amazing. Um I remember we were packing boxes in our tiny little basement office and shipping them out and she was pregnant and she came home like man my back is hurting so bad. I thought well that is definitely my fault because you’re standing shipping boxes all day for me. Yeah absolutely. Yeah we had a blast together. I think it’s a great legacy that your mom built you a business and you didn’t even know it. Right. You were like, “Look at all this stuff I’m doing.” Like, let’s be honest. I I did it.

Yeah. She would never say that. Never. [clears throat] She would never say it. No. She would say that she was worried about me and concerned for my future. So, Oh, it’s a great story. Yeah. Thank you. And so everything you do now is kind of built on the foundation of her legacy spirit. Yeah, definitely. Her spirit is the best. We call it spreading the spirit of Jojo at Jojo’s. We brought in some phenomenal leaders that, you know, did a phenomenal job at really kind of bringing out the the culture that I was trying to build. I I wasn’t great at like setting the strategy, setting like bringing these values to the forefront and like making

sure we lived them. I just kind of thought it would happen. And we’ve brought some great leaders the last two, three years that have brought those to the forefront and made sure those really lived on. And so now we talk about all the time spreading the spirit of Jojo, pushing forward in optimism, you know, advocating for wellness. And when we say spreading the spirit of Jojo, like we all know it means, you know, we say her love, her optimism, her fight, her faith, you know, those were like things she lived by. And so it’s been fun to see that that’s going to continue to live on no matter where the brand goes. I think it’s

interesting as I have looked over the company and uh where where you are today, especially with the leadership today because that seems like it’s changed over time and that you took this step of bringing in talented people to help continue to run and grow the business. I think a lot of people, especially a lot of people who start a business, might feel awkward about that, might have some concerns about bringing in outside talent, but tell us how has tell us about that experience for you. Yeah, great question. Extremely hard. And fortunately, I’ve got good people around me that do have my best interest in mind. We’ve had some hard conversations. I mean, we all have

egos. We try not to have self-interest. Absolutely. And so like of course like as somebody starts your own company and builds it. Of course you’re like no I can I can do it all. I can build it. I can and you know I had had an experience. I was sitting at uh uh would have been Silicon Slope Summit several years ago. Steve Young came and spoke. And it’s funny he actually cuz now due to being married this is my grandpa-in-law, right? Um not Stephen Steve Young. Uh Steven CVY. Steve Young is talking about the first time he met Steven Cvy. your Steven CVY is your my grandpa tech. Yeah. Yeah. From marriage, right? And so

Steve Young is talking about his experience. He tells the story and so immediately he starts telling the story and I perk up because he says Stephven CVY and he says I was sitting on a plane. I you know the story is he had kind of really dug himself into kind of this uh self-pity depression just kind of you know woe me and and De says well let me ask you like how’s how how’s your coach? Oh, one of the greatest coaches of all time, you know, how’s the manager? Uh, he’ll be known as one of the best managers. And and he goes, well, is Joe Montana? Would he be your, you know, mentor? And he

goes, well, never really asked him. And and so Stephen Cody goes, look, you are sitting in the best possible opportunity to have. You’re giving me chills. I mean, that’s exactly the question he should be asking. And so I was sitting there with my investors and leaders saying, “Hey, let’s put some people around you that will help you grow and lead you and and so it took it hit me in that moment like a train like okay like that’s what I need. It’s exactly what I had been doing. I was like I don’t need anybody. I you know and so that story and you know like I said I perked up when he said let me

tell you about the first time I met Stephven CVY because I was like well I have a connection there. And so that helped me, you know, and I’m constantly battling with that. Like it’s the po tug and pull like how much do you fight for like just what you believe in and how much do you say no like let me let other people and I’ve learned like from these individuals who you know truly have Jojo’s best best interest in mind and myself like come in and learn from them and and then I’ve tried to take these opportunities like the tough conversations I had to have as like an opportunity to learn. So when I go

into these conversations that I, you know, haven’t had before and I’m I’ve decided I’m gonna learn. I’m just gonna take this as an opportunity to learn. Yeah. Because I’m gonna need gonna do this again later in the future. Well, it’s an interesting balance because you have all of the history. You have all of the tribal knowledge and you know what you know why it started and the foundation of it and why it exists and the all of the things. And uh if and and I think not only do people resonate with the product, but people resonate with the story. Mhm. And that combination is really powerful. And and so if you start messing with that

formula, it could go it could go really wrong. I mean, I think of the recent Cracker Barrel controversy. I mean, Cracker Barrel has like raving fans. Yeah. And then when you change that, when you change the logo or you take something off the menu, I I mean it caused that was hilarious. It caused an uproar. Uhhuh. And that is bringing in outside talent. It was someone’s probably really smart, successful elsewhere, but you still have to be aligned with the foundation of the product. Do you do you feel like you’ve been able to achieve that? Yeah. And I think that is the sign of a great leader that comes in, understands that and doesn’t, you know,

doesn’t just push their own agenda. Um, so Chris Chris Bowler is our CEO and is a phenomenal leader because he does he brings in everybody’s opinion, the whole organization, you know, allows me to voice mine, allows there to be debate, allows there to be opposition and voting and, you know, and so he does that to in an incredible job. And so to be able to observe that has been awesome as well as to be able to kind of feel that there is that um belief in you know the root of Jojo’s and not trying to you know change the reason we had success but how do we actually like really scale you know how do

you go from 2030 to 100 how do you go you know how do you go that next step and a lot of brands you know at that 10 to 15 is a very pivotal moment to go to 30 to 40 and then to 100 and So, uh, it’s been a been a huge blessing to learn, you know, and then also I think just like being self-aware and pausing and going, okay, but like deep down, what do I like really want? Like, is it to just run it and or is it, hey, like how amazing would it be to have great people do it with me, you know? Um, and so I’ve had to had to,

you know, and when you bring in investors obviously too, you got to you got that’s the thing. One of the biggest lessons for me is like I’ve been fortunate. I don’t have the horror story of investors. You know, some people do and I don’t. Um there’s been there’s been challenges. There’s been different opinions. Of course there will be. But I think the one thing I didn’t fully appreciate and recognize is like when you take somebody’s money, like not take, but when you get somebody’s money, like you have to make sure you understand their motive and at the end of the day, they have to get a return. Like it’s just that simple. Absolutely. And so

like you got to know that. And so things don’t go perfect. Of course they’re going to get involved. Of course they’re going to protect their money. And of course they’re going to do what is the best interest for their investors because that is who they are loyal to rightfully so. I mean you want that if you gave them your money. It’s it’s not a charity. Yeah. But you know that’s that’s an interesting thing because even when you give your money to charity the expectation is still that the charity runs well. Like it does something with it. Right. I am giving this [clears throat] money that I earned to go make it produce some good results

charity or more money. Absolutely. How do you think your your mom would have approached bringing in outside talent? Um she would have just loved everybody. She wouldn’t have been very good at it. Like I wasn’t early on because I just was like, “Yeah, I like them. Let’s hire them.” Yeah. Um, but uh she she was very good and something I’ve had to learn at like understanding what she’s good at, what she’s not. Um, and that’s taken me, you know, I’ve been slower at that than I should have been. Um, of like understanding like what am I good at and so where do I need to fill in the gaps? Um her approach was just like

she wants to work with good people, you know, um good honest people and uh but not not a she she was a like wants to do it all because she just like wanted to do it right, you know, and so um and that’s part of my personality too. It’s like I’ll do it all like cuz I I can do it, you know. And so she was very much like do as much as you possibly can. Um and so anyways, we both kind of have that. So it’s taken a lot to like delegate to give you know um like uh not authority but give responsibilities to others. Sure. Yeah. It’s it sounds like um you’ve been

able to find really good people. Have you had the experience where you made a wrong hire? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We’re talking about we’re fortunate to be sitting in 2026 where we’re talking about a great team that I have and not that I had bad people as in terms of like immoral bad people that you know just not the right fit right and yeah so to back up um like I said we raised money in 2019 we hired you know couple people in 2020 but from 2020 to 222 we went from you know four of us to we had 20 and at the end of 2022 I looked around and realized one like we can’t afford

these people. Um two, you know, we had some people in spots that weren’t they didn’t have the right skill set and they weren’t, you know, for example, we had a leader just wasn’t willing to make the hard decision of letting go of somebody who wasn’t performing. So they just hire over them. So now we have two people that can’t afford. And so we got to and you know, we we grew a retail sales team and the retail sales didn’t grow as fast, right? Grocery stores takes it takes a while, right? Unless unless you have a huge influencer, right? But like you you present in April, that means you’re going to get in in November and

you’re going to start selling in December. Like it’s 6 months maybe. And if you get a no, it’s another 18 months. So anyways, it was slower growth. And so at the end of 2022, we went from 20 people to five um by early 23. Wow. There was five of us. Um, and so it was and even through that process, I mean, I hired, you know, two heads of operations. That was my I mean, we’re on to my fifth VP of sales and fortunately, she’s been she’s been with us for two years now. And like, so yeah, we’re in this position now that I feel like we have great people. um that there is trust that

there is it’s the both there’s the um I think Tony Robbins talks about like early on you just hire like family just like because you trust them and they’ll work hard and then you’re like okay I got to I got to hire skill set you jump to skill set or or experience and then but they don’t have the values aligned right and so we now have both we have more than capable people um and the aligned values and the belief system I think that’s the hardest part is because there’s certainly a culture are associated with the business and all businesses, but specifically with your business and and so finding the right culture alignment because you

get like like you said, you get one individual who’s not aligned with culture. Yikes. Especially as a small company, I mean, there’s 10 of you or eight, it just flows right down to everybody and can create enormous obstacles. And like truthfully also like I was a first time founder, first- time entrepreneur, first time CEO. Like I also did did not know how to lead a team. Like I kind of thought, you know, you kind of think, oh well, I’m a leader. Like people get excited about my vision. Like there’s a difference in like being able to like set a vision and people get excited about it and then leading and managing. And I was not

and I’m still getting better at that like leading and managing. And so it a lot of that bad hires and it not being the right fit is on me, not just them. Let’s I’m gonna I’m gonna let’s keep that in the back of our minds. I want to talk about some of those lessons learned as we as we wrap up the podcast. But as we’re still talking about um the functioning business, you mentioned earlier like your marketing packaging stuff is kind of was maybe uh on the amateur side. Sub subpar is a nice way to say it. I was trying to figure out how to say that. You could say ugly and bad and terrible.

I didn’t want to say any of that. Uh unique. Let’s It was unique early on in a bad way. And then Okay. So, at what point did somebody say did Sprouts come to you and say, “Look, we love the product, but your packaging is terrible.” Did Did you have an epiphany somewhere along the way that you you needed to work on that side of the business? Because today the packaging is I have three bags sitting on my desk. The packaging is really nice. Really very appealing. Yeah. Uh definitely many iterations and I would say even like a couple of them didn’t improve it but I mean there’s the one like your mom’s kitchen like you

can’t that bag can’t go on a shelf. So that was kind of the first one okay like yeah we can’t put a cellophane bag that doesn’t even stand up in sprouts. So that was the first step design was you know again it was like me being like oh yeah I like that and somehow we got into Costco with our brown bag. It was because, you know, in 2018, we were the first adding cho adding protein into the chocolate. It was the best like macros for a chocolate bar. Mhm. And it was different enough, you know, and so like and we and anyway, so we had the right like ingredients, uh, but we but we still

were successful in Costco early on. And so I look back, man, that brown pallet, brown bag, but at Costco, you can sample, you can, you know, you can talk to people. And so the big kind of epiphany was we when we in 2019 raised money there was this hey like we definitely need to glow up the brand if we’re going to go get in stores. Which year is this again? Uh 2019. And so 2020 is when we did and we actually in in our industry we have a uh it’s called Expo West. It’s a big show. Yeah. And uh we prepared everything for that. We did the rebrand. We worked with an agency our investors

had recommended and and definitely elevated and that’s when we got kind of our our I the Jojo logo icon um was through that process and it was perfect timing. My mom passed December 2019 and I remember like January 2020 they showed the like little icon and I was like I knew I wanted that. I didn’t know what I wanted like and when I saw it I was like yes like that gets to live on you know and it was it was perfect. So we got that and we launched and we prepared for Expo West 2020. That didn’t happen clearly in 2020. We were all prepared. Expo West got cancelled, but we launched the brand and

you know it it definitely elevated the brand but even still after that like we get into grocery stores and it’s not like pulling itself off shelf. So we didn’t nail the imagery and the appetite appeal and we still hadn’t nailed the right message. We did another iteration and it still did not like hit it. And so two years ago, well a year and a half ago with this new group we brought in, we went through the right process. What is the right message? What is what are the key things? And we did they call a brand defining idea. We went through this whole process to nail what is Jojo’s brand defining idea. And um we

call it sweet triumphant snacking. Like that is what JoJo’s is. It’s a sweet triumphant snacking. You eat it, you feel like triumphant. you you you won because you chose the right snack both for your taste buds and for your health. And so that’s where we came up with the tagline snack victoriously uh because it allows you to feel that way. It’s a better way to say guilt-free chocolate, right? You know, we and we never loved guilt-free chocolate because you don’t like the negative aspect of it, but it also hit early on. Um mainly just cuz that’s what people would call it. So we ended up with snack victoriously and then we also leaned into the

right appetite pill. We needed it’s chocolate. People need to think like see it and go that looks delicious. Yeah. So that’s like I said several iterations get where we are. We are starting to see that immediate you know get on shelf and it it sales are increasing. It’s going to take time but like at least previously we’d get on shelf and kind of just be the same. It’d be flat, you know, but we’ve got in stores and we’re seeing an uptick and so we’re getting there. Oh, that’s amazing. It’s a great it’s a great story. Um thank you. And are you are you at this point in in the history of the company? What are

the things that you think about like what are what are the next steps? Is it is it like okay, we’re on the right path. We have these nicer products. We’re in all these stores and and our momentum is good. We’re going to keep going. Or are you thinking of innovating and expanding and Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. This year is all about it is actually all about product innovation because we have like we’ve got the core you call it like I just said the brand defining idea works and hits people resonate with that. Mhm. But like in chocolate we’ve got to get like we still need more innovation. So that’s that’s our main goal this year is

innovate within this added protein low sugar which is what we do. Mh. How do we make more snacks and treats that appeal to more people? And so that’s what this year’s all about because with grocery and retail, I mean, we look at other brands and they’ll have 12 products on the shelf. We’ve got three. And so like there is still so much opportunity to innovate and we believe that’s what’s going to drive the growth. And in grocery stores, I mean, I love I love the brand Kodiak Cakes, you know, but you look at their innovation has been unbelievable from a pancake mix. They’re in the frozen section. They’re in granola bars. You know, they’ve been

able to be successful because they’ve taken the same idea and just said, “Okay, well, we can go to frozen now. People will eat frozen waffles with added protein.” So, that’s what we’re trying to decide. I mean, we still have to first be successful at what we’re doing, which is chocolate in the candy section or better for you snack section, and then we’ll continue to evolve from there. Yeah. And we want to just become a lot more of a we we call it reliable consistent business is what we’re really achieving next is just this consistent and business in grocery stores that people count on it and they buy it and it becomes a part of their

daily routine. What does that entail? I mean what So it it feels like you’re uh it’s an interesting thing that you say about consistency because it feels like you’re in lots of really good retail. people are obvious obviously purchasing the product but not in in a way that or or or do you think it could be uh consumed more regularly? What’s Yeah. So I for us we’ve seen the success in club channel. So in in our c industry you’ve got kind of Costco Sam’s Club and on the east coast it’s called BJ’s Wholesale. You’ve got kind of grocery stores, you know, your Albertson Safeway, your your Smiths, your Kroger, Harman’s in Utah, um Publix, and

then you also have kind of Walmart, Target. And so Costco and that world operates very different from Sprouts, Whole Foods, um Target, uh Sprouts, and those places, right? That’s where we’re trying to have more success moving forward. Um, we’ve done a very good job in the club channel as we call it. And so where we really need and where it becomes consistent, reliable is the grocery store. And so for us, that’s what’s next is the unlock. You know, we’re not in Kroger yet. We’re not in Publix, you know, we have a little bit distribution in Alberts and Safeway. So there’s still so much white space for Jojo’s in what we call kind of your traditional

grocery store. And it’s also proving that like there are we talk about, yes, there’s this shift towards better health, but it’s still the minority when you go to a grocery store. I mean, go to the candy section. They give you 5 ft for better for you chocolate and candy and then you have 30 ft of your chocolate. So, obviously that is still the majority. Otherwise, they wouldn’t give 30 ft of their store for traditional co chocolate. Yeah. And so, we it’s still we still got a long ways to go. Yeah. I think there’s probably still some of this the concept of healthier chocolate doesn’t necessarily resonate because we’ve all had healthy chocolate and it’s terrible.

It’s like brown cardboard that doesn’t really melt. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so I mean there is some of that to overcome. Y because still when you you know you take throw a few peanut M&M’s in your mouth it’s like well that’s pretty good. That’s what people used to. There’s some protein in there. Yeah. So, we that’s our that’s our goal is innovate within that space so we can continue to grow. Yeah. Well, it is it’s a great it’s a great product. Okay. Thank you. Did you ever think that you would be like, you know, in this position running a chocolate snack company, snacking victoriously? You know, I love that, by the way. Snack victoriously. And

I’ll tell you why I love it. um because it gives you the sense of it tells you all everything you need to know about the product without saying oh it’s got cranberries and almonds and great tasting chocolate when you say snack victoriously it’s like and the reason I say that is because I came across a company back east an old it’s it’s a it’s an old company that manufactures cologn and perfumes they manufactured George Washington’s cologne and It’s still available. It’s called number six. Whoa. And so I bought some. And when people ask me about it cuz I always tell everybody like I have George Washington’s. Come on. I don’t happen to be wearing it

today. And they when they say when they say like, well, how is it? What does it smell like? I say it smells like victory. And that’s all you need to know about George Washington. Yes. Is it smells like victory. So yeah, snacking victoriously. It’s it’s a really it’s a really great message. Thank you. And it leans into the way my mom lived her life. So that was it was a double it was a double win and that was the goal. Absolutely. Okay. So you never thought you’re going through the entrepreneur program, you’re going to be an investment banker, but nope. You’re the chocolate snacking king. Yeah. It’s I’d say yes and no. Like obviously early

on I mean I never never growing up entrepreneurship wasn’t on my mind and then you know going through college it was kind of once I got I call it bit by the entrepreneur bug like then you start like you set hopes and dreams and I’m I’m a big believer in vision boards and all that and so there’s kind of there’s two sides to me is like I hoped and believed that I could potentially do it right. I was fortunate enough that year, my first year, I actually did a small internship at a startup out of like a garage classic, right? Like, and I I remember doing that and looking around and going, “These guys are

just trying to figure it out.” Like, yeah, they’re they were smarter than me because they were, you know, hardware and engineers and that, I couldn’t do that. But the other guys that were just like kind of figuring it out, I was like, they’re just trying to figure it out. I’m like, I could try to do that. And that’s one thing you know that I realized is like I definitely I I remember asking somebody during the investment banking interview was like well how do I like show or tell you or prove that I will work harder than anybody? I am not smarter. How do I like give me the chance right? So that’s hard. Yeah. Which

entrepreneurship is like that I could just do that. And so yes there’s like a part of me that’s like yeah I believed in it. Um but you also in the moment you don’t like I remember thinking like oh my gosh like if we could sell a million dollars that’d be it. Yeah. And it’s [clears throat] not you know. Um and so yeah. Yes and no. Like I’d say once you start going then I was like okay I can start seeing like I believe we could get there. I believe we could do this and and we still have a long ways to go you know. Okay. Well, based on that, if there was anything else in

the world that you could do right now and be successful, what would that be? Man, probably uh two things come to mind. Um, since we talked about it, like um like teaching teaching like um honestly teaching about like Christian beliefs. Like if I could do that, like I that I’m so passionate. I love that. I love that. So I also tie that to like coaching. I would love to coach because you get to help develop youth and uh you know give them a belief system and that. So yeah, coaching, teaching, like I uh love that idea. Um at the same time like I am obsessed with health and so I would love to do something

that just continues to help people with whether it’s education but I don’t know if that’s all we need, you know. So it’s a great question. It’s something I’ve been sitting with. There’s lots of things. Maybe you could put all those pieces together and something create a Frankenstein in there. What is your What is your secret obsession? Good question. I I need one. Um, yeah, that’s a good great question. Um, okay. I’m going to go two things. I’m going to go back to you. Me I should have mentioned this. Acting is one thing I would love to do. I’ve never done it in my life. So, I’d say I am like I love comedy. I love

like I I love like movie. I don’t watch a ton of them, but I love like good true story movies. So, I have this obsession of like I love I love that. I love good entertainment, good movies that tell good stories. Um and and then the reason like the first one that would come to mind is like working out, but I’m going going through this uh health journey right now for injuries and so I’m not like as in it as I wish I was right now. I um speaking of CrossFit like used to do that and I was obsessed with that for a while there. So, um I’m going to I’m going to have to

go find a new obsession. Yeah. Yeah. I think you should. One of these things that you talk about is leadership and I I want to I want to hit back on that and and you said that you discovered like the leadership um strategy leadership that was a challenge that’s been a challenge. So tell us about that things that you’ve learned from that and how you might approach that differently. Yeah, I think because going into it was like I I mean like I said I’m I love people and I have an ability to connect with people and I have an ability, you know, to kind of get people on my team and so I thought that

would transfer to like I can lead them, I can, you know, I can uh manage them. One, I had never done that. Um and then so managing is a skill set like it’s not a what what do they call it like a talent and a skill like it it is a skill set that you got to learn you got to study you got to observe and you have to try and implement and so and also too I mean this is an excuse like being an entrepreneur you kind of you operate different and so like I my mindset like I just kind of thought everybody would operate this way and you know everybody come in and

work as hard you know and I’m like no that’s not the case and that doesn’t need to be the case for everybody. Um, and so I had to stop and go, okay, obviously not everybody thinks the way I think and that’s good. Um, and and also not everybody’s going to operate the same way. And then also just like culture and like uh the way you work doesn’t it will happen in its own way and that won’t be the way you want, right? And so I learned through observing a great leader is like you put out you write it down, you put it out on paper and then you also get everybody’s buy in too. Like

it’s not just me. And I also thought, okay, well, as long as I tell everybody and say, “Do you guys like this?” That’s everybody’s buyin. very different than allowing them to be along the process and being willing to say, “Hey, yeah, like share share your ideas with the group, not to make sure your idea is the right one, but to make sure then they all they think about your idea as well as their own and you all arrive at the best way.” for example, our four values. Like I, you know, I would have put out our values differently, but the four values we’ve aligned on are exactly what I would want like for the team

and that’s how I would want us to operate, but we got there in a better way and now everybody’s bought in. And then same with the strategy like I you know, well there’s some quotes like if you if you think it’s clear, it’s not. You got to know and everybody around you needs to know it’s clear and then it might be you know and then you have a chance. Yeah. And I you know and so I was not good at you know and also I’m I’m definitely have the shiny object syndrome you know and so I’m quick to oh let’s try that let’s try that and that’s not good for a team you know um

you got to give it enough time trying something. So, I’ve learned getting the whole team bought in on a few strategic directions for the year, you know, as you grow that team. Yeah. And you got to change from when it’s you, your mom, and your wife, you know, the way you’re operating is different than when you’ve got four, five, six new people, you know, it’s not going to be the same. And yeah, you can operate by your gut for the your first few years when it’s your your wife, you know. Yeah. Um, so that was a big learning, you know, and and like I said, and then the last is is the hiring process is

hard. I had kind of a mentor. First time he met me, we just like started talking and started telling him he’s like, “Man, you’re you’re all heart and people is going to be a problem for you.” And I kind of took me back. I’m like, he’s like, “You’re just all heart.” And so like it that’s going to be hard for you. And he was right on. And it doesn’t come natural for me to have hard conversations to be candid. And so I have to be aware of that. And then I also have when in the hiring process my gauge of do I like them is not a good gauge cuz you like everybody. Yeah. You

see the good in everybody try to at least. And so yeah so those are been uh been fortunate to learn and and see you know have those strategy meetings and set the sessions and bring people together and set it together as a team. Yeah it’s such it’s really good insight. Appreciate that. Do you have if you’re struggling, if you need to make a hard decision, um if things don’t feel like they’re going the right way, how do you how do you work yourself out of that? Do you have a confidant? Do you have a process? How do you work through difficult challenges? To be honest, flat out, I pray, man. Like I heard an athlete

say it was just like the best. Like it just came off natural. He’s like they were like, “Oh, what’s your tips?” He’s like, “Work hard, pray hard.” And I was like, “That’s it. That’s a t-shirt.” I know, right? We should be doing that. Yeah. So, um, but really like, yes, that’s a part of it obviously for me. Um, but the thing that’s helped me a lot lately is writing it out. It’s it’s a very kind of common sense. Um, uh, going back to Stephen Cubby, one of my favorite quotes from him is common sense doesn’t mean common practice. and like get get all get it written out, get it jotted down and and that way

you can kind of get it all out of your head because you know stress comes from like there’s a problem out there that I need to solve but you’re not really working on it. You’re just stewing on it. Mhm. And so, um, yeah. So, I do a lot of like I try to find I go I wake up early to just sit on it and just sit and think on it, you know, instead of like stewing, but like really try to like sit and think, you know, I think there’s a difference, you know, and kind of like letting it boil and letting it, you know, stew versus no, let’s sit, write it out, and think

through it. as you’ve gone through this process and you look back um where you’ve been, where you’re headed, is are is there something that you did that you think, “Oh man, that was wow, what a that was a mistake.” And and and if so, there’s a lot of them. Well, we don’t have that much time. Oh, I know. I better wrap up. Um h and and how did you overcome that? How do you address those things moving forward? M I’m trying to think of a very specific example because there’s just kind of a lot that come to mind, but um oh, one one real one comes to mind is um we talked about a little

bit about cander or but uh kind of the opposite of cander is maybe like passive aggressive, right? Um, and so I’d say early on with having a board of directors, like I was like being agreeable in in like the moments, but like really like I didn’t like I didn’t fully agree like meaning like I didn’t believe in what they were saying. And so I I was agreeable in the moment, but then later on I’m like, I’m going to do my own wow anyways instead of being willing to just contest and just and contest maybe not the right way, but just like express a different opinion and just be willing to say like I’m seeing it

this way like I I don’t see it the way you see it. So help like you know so and that’s hard. Um especially I think maybe this is an excuse as a young entrepreneur and there’s older you know experienced more experienced people. Yeah. Absolutely. So the way I overcame that later on was calling up that individual and saying, “Hey, we’ve, you know, I can tell you’re frustrated with me. We’re both kind of frustrated with the situation. Can we go to lunch and talk it out?” And it was the best thing I did because by the end of that lunch meeting, like there was so much alignment and and it was just the simple principle of

like truly seeking to understand like go in there and like, you know, let me and doesn’t mean you have to agree, but understand. And so, um, continue to try to do that, you know, when they’re and just like kind of calling it out, maybe not in the moment, but shortly after like, hey, I can tell we’re not in agreement. Let’s talk about it, you know, instead you can tell in the moment, you know, and so, um, yeah, trying to be better at either immediately expressing the or as soon as possible coming back like, hey, I didn’t feel comfortable to express in the moment. I got to express it now. I’ve sat on this. And it’s

okay if you need to sit on it for 12 hours, you know, call them back, sit on it. So that’s something I’ve tried to get better at. I think that’s great. Uh because there are there are you know I feel I I do that sometimes too is like you know it’s not necessarily biting your tongue but but trying to be agreeable and not expressing if there’s some question or doubt or misalignment. So one being able to to do that in the in the moment. That’s a that’s a skill you have to learn how to do that. opening the lines of communication and then I think the maybe the most important part is this seeking to

understand so you have a perspective but the under the other individual has a perspective as well right and you have to that I mean that’s where you get alignment is understanding each other so really really good really good lessons what do you think you do really well I mean what do you think people say you know what that guy he’s great at making chocolate except for I don’t Agreed. Credit goes to Jojo. Yeah. Yes. Uh that’s a good one. Um in terms of like the work environment, I I’d say an ability to kind of will things into existence. Um like or better said like running through walls. Um and that is a good thing that

I I can do. and then it’s you know see an obstacle I was like well we will get over through it around like we will we will I think I kind of got that early on we talked about my dad like and my mom like they both had that ability um kind of the mindset of believing as well as the work ethic and then also like in sports uh I think I fortunate and unfortunate from being like cut from a team or from not starting you know I just kind of early on put in this like well I’ll just keep working I’ll just keep working at it. And I’ll share a funny I actually don’t

think I’ve ever shared this story. Um my senior year of high school, I didn’t play on I played on the team. I made the basketball team, but I didn’t start and didn’t play. Um but they had a three-point state shooting competition. Um that you know, players from the teams got to compete and and so like even though I wasn’t a starter, I could compete in that. And so I just every morning I woke up before school and I would shoot three-pointers just every day. And I thought I can work towards that because I have control over that. I don’t have as much control over playing or not. That’s up to the coach. Mh. Um and

so I can work towards that. And so that like early on, I mean that was my senior year, so I was 17. Like I kind of created this ability to say like, well, I can still like just work through that and ended up winning the three state three-point shooting contest in Arizona as as the non-starter. Kind of fun. That’s amazing. Yeah. You know, so it was one of those early moments to be like, yeah, you can accomplish something. It’s such a great principle because there are things that you can’t control and and you can’t necessarily control the coach’s decision on whether or not you’re going to play. Those are things what whatever and people get

all upset about it. But but the things that you can control like your effort, how you prepare, your attitude are things you can control. And so you took advantage of all of those things and found yourself just the three-point champion. Man, this has been I still haven’t come up with a great nickname for you. That you know. So stir fry but ster stir fry is pretty good. I mean stir fry is stir fry is pretty good. I do like sterl. Sterl that is so unique. Yeah I do that one guy that called me that I actually like was like okay I might lean into that a little sterl. What a great story. What a fascinating

story. Thank you. Thank you. It’s a great product. Where can people find it and where can people find what you’re doing? Yeah. Um Costco, so different grocery stores. We’re not in every grocery store across country, but um Costco’s definitely our uh prominent grocery store or online. I mean, if we’re not in your local grocery store, jos.com, best play to find it. Uh and then yeah, um I find me probably would only be uh LinkedIn. Um or just Jojo’s Instagram. Uh I’m not much on uh social, so I uh but LinkedIn’s place to connect. I I love connecting with other entrepreneurs, other people. So, LinkedIn, great place to just connect and I love connecting with people.

I failed to mention this, so I’m going to do it right now. I I apologize it’s so late, but Elizabeth, your spouse, yes, has been meaningful in this whole process. How how how important is that to your success? Uh, I tell her so she knows I mean everything like I I would not there’s a very clear like growth trajectory. those first couple years were struggling, then everything got better when I married my wife. Um, and I mean, she’s phenomenal. Um, so yeah, it’s she’s deserves all the credit uh for us being here, for me being able to be able to work this hard at it and being able to, you know, she’s one that I

constantly go to with ideas and struggles and and uh so yeah. Uh, absolutely amazing. And if you want to scroll back a long time to that Instagram, you can clearly see the day she took over the Instagram. It went from very ugly to so there’s a that’s a direct pivot there direct example of how much her impact made. My photo was like a Jojo’s barn like a banana that was probably like yellowish brown and then like the next photo she took over. She’s like, “You are done posting on Instagram.” That’s great. Well, listen, continued success. I hope you’ll come back and see us again. If you’re ever in the neighborhood and you have a few

packs in the back of your vehicle, feel free to drop them off. We’re we’re big fans around here. Thank you. Thank you. Come back and see us. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to the Know Your Ship podcast presented by EHUB. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review.